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post #141 of 422
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hasty View Post

I don't either. I'm hoping someone from the display industry could post in this thread to give more insight into variable refresh rate implementation.

Ask and ye shall receive:

http://overlordforum.com/topic/603-nvidia-g-sync/page-5
Quote:
So here is where GSYNC for Tempests stand: in queue.

Since Nvidia handles all the board design for all the OEMs on the planet, for any and all panels they request, Nvidia is a bit overwhelmed at the moment. I was told yesterday that Nvidia only has so much "bandwidth" (person hours) for GSYNC design and those engineers are working their tails off trying to get all the boards done as soon as possible.

What does this mean for our requested panel design? We are not in process yet, but their engineers want to get ours out. However, the larger OEMs are first to be served, which makes sense since Overlord is very small compared to all the others. For now it seems only TN-related panels are being designed.

It is good news that Nvidia's engineers want to tackle our panel and OC PCBs - it is somewhat bad news that there isn't enough hours in the day to get everything done! I was told our panel will be designed, but not when. There also seems to be some discussion as to what extent the overclock on the panel would be set and how that all would work. That discussion is for a later time once the engineers take a look at our gerbers and decide how to best tackle GSYNC and our panel.

Overall, this means once the design is complete we would offer the same deal going for the ASUS 248 panel (and others that will be coming in the next 6 months with GSYNC) - a pre-done panel with GSYNC, a mod service, and a kit (that is the plan at this moment). Of course, all of this can change at any time since we are at the mercy of Nvidia and their schedule.
Quote:
GSYNC does require an entirely new PCB with display port only. There is no module that clicks into any existing PCB since the entire board, with the module, must be tuned to the specific panel being used.

This is the cause for the delay. Nvidia has to hand tune every PCB (input and in some cases the timing controller) to match the panel every OEM wants to use.

Again, we are hoping to have something within the next few months to test, but aren't holding our breath. The goal is to have the new Gsync version available, with a mod service, and a standalone kit. How all this will work is still up in the air as it depends on PCB design, sizing, etc.

If it were as easy and simple with just a DP spec update to solve everything as some people here would like you to believe, there is no way in hell Overlord would be waiting on Nvidia's engineers. If they could, they would be doing it themselves. Straight from the horse's mouth.
Edited by Mand12 - 4/6/14 at 12:58pm
post #142 of 422
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcfoo View Post

The "Free", is in "no licencing fees required free".

This isn't what AMD said. It's what AMD's internet defender squad has come to be saying, but it's not what AMD said during their presentation. They said it would not require "expensive hardware" and therefore would be free.

It was a lie, but you pretending they didn't say it doesn't help your cause.
post #143 of 422
"What does this mean? Nothing yet, really, except that a gigantic standards body seems to approve."
http://www.pcper.com/news/General-Tech/Rumor-VESA-Might-Have-Accepted-AMDs-FreeSync

(please excuse the lack of proper formatting, posting on this phone is a PIA - not to menfion t-mobiles lag)
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post #144 of 422
Quote:
Originally Posted by fateswarm View Post

Is freesync on paper as good on latency as gsync? Gsync is tested to have approximately zero latency compared to no sync. Will AMDsync be the same?

(~zero latency difference provided fps is or is capped below monitor refresh by at least a few hz, but that's approximately no trouble)

That's an easy one to figure out. Get a Freesync monitor and G-Sync monitor and test it! I bet a review site is working on such a review right now. rolleyes.gif

Yes I ignored the on paper part, on paper everything looks great, in reality is what matters. G-sync is here now, Freesync will be here "some day"
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcfoo View Post


There's something wrong with your logic.

NVIDIA is licensing the G-Sync module that they spent R&D on, built and brought to market themselves. Which means, if a Monitor Manufacturer wants to add it to their line of monitors, they can add the module to their monitors and pay a licensing fee to use it. SIMPLE.

What exactly does AMD have to license to others? Have they built a "freesync" module?

AMD is expecting the monitor manufacturers to do the R&D, build the module and add it to their monitors. What could AMD possibly request licensing from?

Point is, these are 2 very different scenarios, not sure why some people have such a hard time grasping them. The simple truth is that they BOTH WILL cost extra, nothing is really FREE in this world.

In case you forgot what AMD said about Freesync, let me remind you:
Quote:
Alongside the demo, a senior AMD engineering executive asserted that a variable refresh rate capability like G-Sync ought to be possible essentially for free, without adding any extra costs to a display or a PC system.

Edited by 2010rig - 4/6/14 at 1:34pm
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post #145 of 422
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mand12 View Post

This isn't what AMD said. It's what AMD's internet defender squad has come to be saying, but it's not what AMD said during their presentation. They said it would not require "expensive hardware" and therefore would be free.

It was a lie, but you pretending they didn't say it doesn't help your cause.

"My cause" is not to defend AMD and my "Red Team" squad.
I have no beef with nVidia. They do what they see fit. I do what I see fit. I have a GTX Titan.

It is about stating what sounds better for us consumers in general, and calling some obvious "Green Squad" members on the way they are bending w/e they see fit "for their cause".

And something that will be included in VESA / Display port specs - optional or not - that will be included in turn in all new hardware - both on GPU and monitor side, is far better than a proprietary tech that regardless of actual production costs, today adds $150 or more ontop of already expensive hardware to be implemented.

Sorry, but it is erroneous quoting me to write about Red Squads, and indirectly calling me having a hidden agenda, directly a pretender and calling out "the lies" I promote when there are all those blatant "Green Team" straw-man arguments all over.


Hold the "Truth" high my friend, you saved the world.

I simply see people with no technical knowledge whatsoever on the subject, speculating depending on their corporation they are sworn to protect, playing stupid linguistic games and splitting hair on one side, while swallowing camels on the other.
But...business as usual for both the green and red sheep I guess, nothing different in this thread.
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post #146 of 422
Quote:
Originally Posted by PostalTwinkie View Post

I think I am running out of breath repeating myself, and this may be my last post here because it doesn't seem to be doing any good, so here it goes..............

What you just said is not only wrong, but completely flawed and speculative.

It (Freesync) requiring the purchase of anything is the point, it isn't "Free" at that point; and AMD has been pushing "FreeSync" as a cost effective alternative to G-Sync, even though they are flat lying about it. G-Sync right now is available to a number of manufacturers, and there is actually a queue for others to wait while they ramp up production of the ASIC. Even Overlord Computers, a tiny little display company in Sacramento, is waiting on a G-Sync module for the very display I am sitting in front of. So, limited to certain manufacturers? Hardly!!!

Further, what qualifies you to make the statement is is only available at an "extreme price"? The DIY kit for it was only $150, a fraction of what a basic gaming rig costs, and I can almost guarantee that display manufacturers don't pay anything near that per ASIC they install. Cost will also come down as the technology is adopted, it is new, it costs more now than it will in the future, that is basic knowledge. To cut off any argument you might have and think it wise to point at displays like the Asus ROG Swift with its $800 price tag as an "extreme price" example I will remind you of this, you aren't paying for just G-sync in that display. The price tag is justified by the insane specs of the display itself, the same thing goes for its smaller $400 brother that was mentioned.

Finally, the big one here.....

NOT EVERY MONITOR WILL SUPPORT FREESYNC! For the love of god people, read!! Actually do research on the topic!

  • FreeSync still requires an ASIC, just like G-Sync! The G-Sync module is an ASIC.
  • FreeSync is an OPTION within the DP 1.2a standard, one of MANY options that can be used - many options aren't. It isn't a mandatory feature of DP 1.2a.
  • The only displays that would support FreeSync will be the displays that use the optional specs in the DP 1.2a standard AND have the ASIC installed.
  • You will have to have an AMD or Nvidia card that supports the feature as well - either through buying a new card or possibly a new driver set or BIOS.


Now, let us look at this from a realistic point, and I have said this several times already. If a very very very small portion of your customer base (display buyers) will benefit from VRR why would you spend the money as a company to put the ASIC in all your displays? The answer, you don't! "FreeSync" capable displays will be sold as "Gamer" displays and at a mark-up, it is that simple. VRR in the desktop world only benefits the gamer, as we are the only ones that are dealing with frame rate fluctuation.

FreeSync isn't some magical thing that just magically happens for free and without cost. This news doesn't mean it is happening, at all.

People, I implore you to simply do basic research on what this takes. Do basic research on how it is already being used in a very select number of situations in the mobile world. Educate yourselves on this topic. I see many of you holding your breath for the Savior AMD to come and free you from the Evil Nvidia and their devilish G-Sync, and you are only setting yourselves up for a HUGE disappointment.

G-Sync and FreeSync are trying to accomplish the same thing, and both are actually approaching it very similarly, they are much closer to each other than many of you think. They also require more or less the same types of hardware to work. They both require an ASIC and they both require a GPU compatible with the specification; they both cost money for hardware! Nvidia is just being upfront with you on those costs and telling you exactly what it takes. AMD, on the other hand, is trying to hide behind catch phrases and buzzwords.

Its funny seems you have done a lot of research, this is all completely anecdotal! As you have said we are not sure is a new GPU is required. FreeSync uses a VESA standard which can be active on all monitors. I mean FreeSync or G-Sync either way you go it will cost but at least with FreeSync you have more choice. In regards to the DIY G-Sync kit what happens if you do not own the compatible monitor? With G-Sync your limited to DP and lose some monitor functions. Why else do you think FreeSync is creating a bigger buzz online than G-Sync?

No one says Nvidia is evil, but all of their tech is proprietary. I don't think you understand the difference between a Standard vs Proprietary and its impact on the industry.
Edited by Redeemer - 4/6/14 at 2:17pm
post #147 of 422

Here's an interesting thought experiment:

 

Suppose, there's a BLUE GPU that exists somewhere. And this random display, maybe OLED, maybe LCD, attached to it. This display has a very weird asic.

 

Here's what it does: it waits around, then it gets a signal and BAM it changes the picture displayed. Then it waits a bit more. Here's the special part though: it only does this when it gets a signal. Magic, amirite?

 

Then this Green Display comes along and goes pfff, I can do the same thing, but between receiving the signal and changing my display I have 768MB of RAM and some processing power. Not a lot, obviously, as that would get hot. And I have less lag! Would you believe that... I have more bits but less lag! Amazing, right! Not that the blue display has any lag, because it changes the moment it gets the signal but I have less, because I'm green.

 

Also, for $175 you get this RAM (nomnomnom) and processing power which the blue GPU doesn't have! Oh, what, it does? Well, it's not like there's any other GPU in this world with RAM or processing power. Certainly not my green GPU, and certainly not red ones, lol no. They're red, for crying out loud.

 


Now, I hope this will have seeded a few ideas:

1) It is pretty possible that current gen (and maybe last gen) GPUs can do VRR. I mean, all 6xx and 7xx ones could do it and they existed well before G-Sync.

2) You don't need a module in your monitor to do this. Just something that waits around for another signal, the logic bit can easily be done on the GPU.

3) There is no reason why AMD's solution (deliberately avoiding "Freesync") should have lag.

 

without altering the facts that:

1) both AMD and NVIDIA are companies trying to make money. NVIDIA did it with VRR before AMD, and thus could charge whatever they want (deserved or not, I don't know nor do I care).

2) It is an option, and will only be implemented into a few monitors at first, and these will be marked up for it. However, if and only if the ASIC is very cheap and easy to implement it could become adopted by lots of manufacturers.

post #148 of 422
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redeemer View Post

As you have said we are not sure is a new GPU is required.
AMD stated their current GPU's are already variable refresh rate capable. They'll just need to provide the functionality in their driver.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redeemer View Post

we are not sure about how widely FreeSync will be supported despite it being a standard
If you're referring to the CES 2014 demo with the laptop using eDP, it was just a concept. It's not applicable to the desktop display market.

Freesync doesn't exist in the desktop world.

And the reason is explained below in these 2 quotes:

Quote:
"Laptops have often been able to dynamically change refresh rates between 50Hz and 60Hz (because 50Hz saves power). So this was a simple modification of laptop LCD’s to allow them to dynamically refresh on the fly (similiar to G-SYNC). However, these are typically low-resolution LCD’s that run only up to 60Hz.

That said, I wonder how they are going to be able to scale this up for gaming monitors. Those LCDs often don’t have power management (via refresh rate) in the same way laptop LCDs do. I am not sure there are chips available that reliably does VRR (Variable Refresh Rate) at full HD resoultions at gaming rates (120Hz+). I think that’s one of the reasons why NVIDIA has to use an FPGA at this time, an FPGA that normally costs between $300-$1000.
"
- Mark Rejhon http://www.blurbusters.com/amd-freesync-the-radeon-answer-to-nvidia-g-sync/

and
Quote:
"However, Petersen quickly pointed out an important detail about AMD's "free sync" demo: it was conducted on laptop systems. Laptops, he explained, have a different display architecture than desktops, with a more direct interface between the GPU and the LCD panel, generally based on standards like LVDS or eDP (embedded DisplayPort). Desktop monitors use other interfaces, like HDMI and DisplayPort, and typically have a scaler chip situated in the path between the GPU and the panel. As a result, a feature like variable refresh is nearly impossible to implement on a desktop monitor as things now stand.

That, Petersen explained, is why Nvidia decided to create its G-Sync module, which replaces the scaler ASIC with logic of Nvidia's own creation. To his knowledge, no scaler ASIC with variable refresh capability exists—and if it did, he said, "we would know."
"
- Scott Wasson http://techreport.com/news/25878/nvidia-responds-to-amd-free-sync-demo



Remember what PostalTwinkie wrote:

"[*] The only displays that would support FreeSync will be the displays that use the optional specs in the DP 1.2a standard AND have the ASIC installed."

That ASIC will be engineered by the display manufacturers themselves. And as of now, there have been no talks about a standard for this as far as I know.
post #149 of 422
Quote:
The only displays that would support FreeSync will be the displays that use the optional specs in the DP 1.2a standard AND have the ASIC installed."
Unless they changed the reason 1.2a was enacted to allow AMD or others to alter the vblank interval or interfere with 1.2(non a). This way they didn't have to wait for 1.3 which would require the above quote. This technically allows them to put a medium between the display ,ANY display, and a GPU in this case AMD and get free-sync/G-sync performance.
post #150 of 422
Quote:
Originally Posted by Durquavian View Post

Unless they changed the reason 1.2a was enacted to allow AMD or others to alter the vblank interval or interfere with 1.2(non a). This way they didn't have to wait for 1.3 which would require the above quote. This technically allows them to put a medium between the display ,ANY display, and a GPU in this case AMD and get free-sync/G-sync performance.

It has been stated a few times that you can't have a "man in the middle" device to do this, because you have to replace the PCB of the display itself, and that new ASIC has to be tuned to the panel you are using.

Basically you can't go GPU to VRR Unit to Input on display. It has to go from GPU to Input on display, the PCB with the input also being the ASIC for the VRR to work.
    
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