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post #51 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by maarten12100 View Post

Mantle can be extended to support other vendors but Nvidia is too egocentric to do such a thing. They rather lose a bit of performance rather than use an API formed by the competition.

DX12 should reduce that overhead indeed but it will arrive very late while Mantle is here and now. DX12 also has a history of being less that what it was promised to be and is updated in very slow pace. I'm glad AMD is helping them.
http://www.bit-tech.net/news/hardware/2014/03/14/nvidia-dx10-eol/1
only reported issues will be fixed but it is pretty much a dead end the mining is btw easily fixable by transfering a file if I read that correctly. Mining is a dying thing anyways.
I was talking dual card for most non DX9 games don't have issues.
Single card there should be no issues with any library.
Maybe you should lower your settings and turn vsync on or if you don't response times to be higher lower settings to 100+ fps levels and turn vsync off.
As if I'm using my 275 or my 570 they are backup cards.
You're having problems with a 6 year old card and you expect something with a 2 year warranty to have unlimited updates.
Arguing goes both ways but the 4870 was pushed out only 2 years after AMD acquired ATI at which point the design would've been in a far stage already. The 5xxx series were aimed at the feature and will hold support for many years to come since DX11 won't leave any time soon. (another 2 - 3 years of driver support)
They are working on that but I agree their linux support hasn't been up to the job.
A example of work
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/amd-mentor-graphics-accelerate-open-120000380.html
The amount of time it takes to port Mantle is nihil compared to normal porting from PS3 costs. The PS4 and Xbox One are a gift for us pc gamers.

Nvidia could adopt Mantle but their pride is in the way. Also there are 20 games or so stated to have mantle support and all major engines are joining. You're severely miscalculating Mantle's momentum it seems.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DirectX#Releases

Holiday 2015 almost 2 years away from commercial availability. In all Mantle games AMD will have less cpu overhead while Nvidia will be left with DX11 for cpu handling. It is a bad position to be in especially multiplayer and RTS.
Brand specific?
All the big names are in the HSA foundation. OpenCL is not HSA it is just using a gpu to do part of the work. HSA is having them work together in harmony and is far more efficient than openCL.

The APU13 keynotes can inform you about the gains it could bring it really makes it easier for devs to use all the power availabe.
Also Java and other major languages will have support for it Java 8 should bring instructions to u it and beyond Java 8 there should be automatic support for it.

cpu only is taped out pretty much we need to go the ASIC way by using the better optimized for paralel gpu to speed things up.

well that s a lot of games dual card configurations don't support or have issues with, as most games are DX9.

HSA i thought was when the GPU in the APU can compute things for the CPU side of the chip and visa versa in AMD APUs.

As you said with DX12 not being out yet well kind of the same deal with mantel while it is out not it still only works with a few select AMD cards AS IS. 20 games is not much my entirely steam library is 335 games and and i have 90 more on my wish list and that's only pin prick size to all of the PC/steam games available.

until nvidia and Intel pickup mantle every one is just gonna use DX and OGL except when they get paid my AMD to implement it save for the few who pick it up on the own accord, that might be star citizen assuming AMD didn't pay them to implement mantle.

Defend it all you want at this time only 20 games have it and it only supports handful of AMD cards mean while OGL and DX (current versions) while slower support all the cards. it's nice and all but, i come around to my hybrid car expression. It does have the potential like you said, only time will tell there but, i think "nuh-uh" but, only because DX and OLG are already so deep rooted.

most games only have 1 renderer usual DX sometimes OGL, if they made a game with just mantle then no one with nvidia cards could play it. when they do add a second renderer it's OGL for cross platform support. which is funny since AMD pretty much gives linux users the middle finger.

That's my point only a few people can use it right now not worth the effort till it's supported by all brands, you can't just leave half your customer base hanging and not able to play your games.
Also if they have crap/limited drivers on linux how are AMD users supposed to play mantle games on linux if they don't have the driver support to begin with.

Well then there you go if you are not using those cards daily then i'd have to say the ball is my court.

Oh i never said Open CL IS HSA they are 2 totally different things. I would ike to ask does any one except for AMD have product out for with HSA does any one else have plans to implement it? (no really i'm asking)

As is i think CPUs are over kill for most people Mrs.Joe soccer mom does not need an i5 for facebook and you tube, that's why we so many Core 2 Duos and Core 2 Quads around but, do i still love them. But, when we do need them boy o boy do the GPUs seem to handle the better part of the load.

EDIT: even if mantel is the second coming of jesus they still have to many bugs and frame issues. sometimes even with single cards. recently the modern single cards were hit with the corrupt text bug. just as an example and that thread i linked to showed issues with the HD5000 series not being able to play videos in the correct clock speed yada yada.

In general Nvidia is supporting the older cards has less issues the AMD drivers have special in the past. have better frame latency in dual GPU setups AND has decent linux support.

Just because you can play your games on windows with the latest AMD card doesn't mean their software side is fine it just means it's fine for you.

sorry abut the linux complaining i know we are i agreement there but, i do use linux and OSX and i want to see steam OS and Linux and flourish and AMD isn't help the situation.
I want everyone with old and new hardware to be able play games and compute with out issue and AMD isn't giving us that and Nvidia is, even Intel is upping their driver and linux support quality. : /
Edited by cdoublejj - 4/5/14 at 9:27am
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post #52 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craftyman View Post

Crossfire support was pretty poor for my 6970 (unlocked) + 6950, do those fall under older cards? Also even while using one single card I would have frame pacing issues for some reason. I know the frame pacing driver should have fixed it but I still felt microstuttering in most games. I switched to a GTX 780 about a week ago and OMG it was so much smoother because there was no microstutter and way higher frame rates too. I really wanted to get a Sapphire Tri-X OC but it was sold out everywhere it wasn't being price gouged hard. Ah well I'm happy with my ref PNY GTX 780 biggrin.gif

Just my 2 cents.

I honestly don't know. I never had CFX when I was on HD 5000 and I was on HD 7000 before the frame pacing fix. Personally, I sidegraded from a GTX 680 to an HD 7950 and was very satisfied. My overclocked 7950 matched my overclocked GTX 680, but I actually made some money by selling the GTX 680 (a used GTX 680 was worth more than a new 7950) and I got the Never Settle Reloaded bundle. No difference in smoothness for me. DX9 smoothness is definitely still an issue with CFX though. You have to use a framerate limiter to get rid of it, but as a v-sync user it's a non-issue. Only game I don't use v-sync in is CS:GO, but I've limited it to 150 FPS and it's perfectly smooth as well.

My only regret is getting the Gigabyte version, both the ASUS DirectCU cards (7970 and 280X) I've used for other builds since then have been extremely quiet and cool.
Edited by B!0HaZard - 4/5/14 at 11:20am
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post #53 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by cdoublejj View Post

well that s a lot of games dual card configurations don't support or have issues with, as most games are DX9.

HSA i thought was when the GPU in the APU can compute things for the CPU side of the chip and visa versa in AMD APUs.

As you said with DX12 not being out yet well kind of the same deal with mantel while it is out not it still only works with a few select AMD cards AS IS. 20 games is not much my entirely steam library is 335 games and and i have 90 more on my wish list and that's only pin prick size to all of the PC/steam games available.

until nvidia and Intel pickup mantle every one is just gonna use DX and OGL except when they get paid my AMD to implement it save for the few who pick it up on the own accord, that might be star citizen assuming AMD didn't pay them to implement mantle.

Defend it all you want at this time only 20 games have it and it only supports handful of AMD cards mean while OGL and DX (current versions) while slower support all the cards. it's nice and all but, i come around to my hybrid car expression. It does have the potential like you said, only time will tell there but, i think "nuh-uh" but, only because DX and OLG are already so deep rooted.

most games only have 1 renderer usual DX sometimes OGL, if they made a game with just mantle then no one with nvidia cards could play it. when they do add a second renderer it's OGL for cross platform support. which is funny since AMD pretty much gives linux users the middle finger.

That's my point only a few people can use it right now not worth the effort till it's supported by all brands, you can't just leave half your customer base hanging and not able to play your games.
Also if they have crap/limited drivers on linux how are AMD users supposed to play mantle games on linux if they don't have the driver support to begin with.

Well then there you go if you are not using those cards daily then i'd have to say the ball is my court.

Oh i never said Open CL IS HSA they are 2 totally different things. I would ike to ask does any one except for AMD have product out for with HSA does any one else have plans to implement it? (no really i'm asking)

As is i think CPUs are over kill for most people Mrs.Joe soccer mom does not need an i5 for facebook and you tube, that's why we so many Core 2 Duos and Core 2 Quads around but, do i still love them. But, when we do need them boy o boy do the GPUs seem to handle the better part of the load.

EDIT: even if mantel is the second coming of jesus they still have to many bugs and frame issues. sometimes even with single cards. recently the modern single cards were hit with the corrupt text bug. just as an example and that thread i linked to showed issues with the HD5000 series not being able to play videos in the correct clock speed yada yada.

In general Nvidia is supporting the older cards has less issues the AMD drivers have special in the past. have better frame latency in dual GPU setups AND has decent linux support.

Just because you can play your games on windows with the latest AMD card doesn't mean their software side is fine it just means it's fine for you.

sorry abut the linux complaining i know we are i agreement there but, i do use linux and OSX and i want to see steam OS and Linux and flourish and AMD isn't help the situation.
I want everyone with old and new hardware to be able play games and compute with out issue and AMD isn't giving us that and Nvidia is, even Intel is upping their driver and linux support quality. : /

Mantle has already received a lot of developers support. A lot of games coming out in next two years are going to have mantle support. Considering mantle recently got released, 20 games so far is impressive.

Since valve's linux support and push AMD has really been pushing their Linux support. It's still not up to par with Nvidia but better tha it was just six months ago. With more developers moving to Linux AMD will continue to imrpove since there's an actually reason to. A Better market.

If you're using a 4xxx series card why are you not using the open source drivers? Open soirce drivers have full support for it. Runs on par with windows. AMD recommends them since they relased a lot of patches and documentation for the open source drivers all the way to the 6xxx series.
Edited by orlfman - 4/5/14 at 11:26am
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post #54 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by orlfman View Post

Mantle has already received a lot of developers support. A lot of games coming out in next two years are going to have mantle support. Considering mantle recently got released, 20 games so far is impressive.

Since valve's linux support and push AMD has really been pushing their Linux support. It's still not up to par with Nvidia but better tha it was just six months ago. With more developers moving to Linux AMD will continue to imrpove since there's an actually reason to. A Better market.

If you're using a 4xxx series card why are you not using the open source drivers? Open soirce drivers have full support for it. Runs on par with windows. AMD recommends them since they relased a lot of patches and documentation for the open source drivers all the way to the 6xxx series.

are you crazy!? open source drivers rob tons of FPS they also don't work right on some cards. on top this i don't run linux on my sig rig, i run it on Core 2 haf which has a GTX480.

the issues i'm having with Hd4850s and HD2600 is out side of gaming, with stuff like web browsing and coin minig, actual i can't even mine coins at all on my HD4850s the driver is flatout missing the SDK or something crazy it insta crashes them inner and they are at stock clocks.
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post #55 of 77
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cdoublejj View Post

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
well that s a lot of games dual card configurations don't support or have issues with, as most games are DX9.

HSA i thought was when the GPU in the APU can compute things for the CPU side of the chip and visa versa in AMD APUs.

As you said with DX12 not being out yet well kind of the same deal with mantel while it is out not it still only works with a few select AMD cards AS IS. 20 games is not much my entirely steam library is 335 games and and i have 90 more on my wish list and that's only pin prick size to all of the PC/steam games available.
Mantle is an easy port from the consoles that is why we see mass adoption sweeping also game devs like AMD for the less money people have to spend to play the game smoothly the more they have left to buy games.

until nvidia and Intel pickup mantle every one is just gonna use DX and OGL except when they get paid my AMD to implement it save for the few who pick it up on the own accord, that might be star citizen assuming AMD didn't pay them to implement mantle.

Defend it all you want at this time only 20 games have it and it only supports handful of AMD cards mean while OGL and DX (current versions) while slower support all the cards. it's nice and all but, i come around to my hybrid car expression. It does have the potential like you said, only time will tell there but, i think "nuh-uh" but, only because DX and OLG are already so deep rooted.

most games only have 1 renderer usual DX sometimes OGL, if they made a game with just mantle then no one with nvidia cards could play it. when they do add a second renderer it's OGL for cross platform support. which is funny since AMD pretty much gives linux users the middle finger.

That's my point only a few people can use it right now not worth the effort till it's supported by all brands, you can't just leave half your customer base hanging and not able to play your games.
Also if they have crap/limited drivers on linux how are AMD users supposed to play mantle games on linux if they don't have the driver support to begin with.

Well then there you go if you are not using those cards daily then i'd have to say the ball is my court.

Oh i never said Open CL IS HSA they are 2 totally different things. I would ike to ask does any one except for AMD have product out for with HSA does any one else have plans to implement it? (no really i'm asking)

As is i think CPUs are over kill for most people Mrs.Joe soccer mom does not need an i5 for facebook and you tube, that's why we so many Core 2 Duos and Core 2 Quads around but, do i still love them. But, when we do need them boy o boy do the GPUs seem to handle the better part of the load.

EDIT: even if mantel is the second coming of jesus they still have to many bugs and frame issues. sometimes even with single cards. recently the modern single cards were hit with the corrupt text bug. just as an example and that thread i linked to showed issues with the HD5000 series not being able to play videos in the correct clock speed yada yada.

In general Nvidia is supporting the older cards has less issues the AMD drivers have special in the past. have better frame latency in dual GPU setups AND has decent linux support.

Just because you can play your games on windows with the latest AMD card doesn't mean their software side is fine it just means it's fine for you.

sorry abut the linux complaining i know we are i agreement there but, i do use linux and OSX and i want to see steam OS and Linux and flourish and AMD isn't help the situation.
I want everyone with old and new hardware to be able play games and compute with out issue and AMD isn't giving us that and Nvidia is, even Intel is upping their driver and linux support quality. :
/
Well the rest of the forum kinda views it this way Nvidia could adopt Mantle for their Kepler lineup and they wouldn't have to do something like adopt GCN. The can get support for the cpu part if they were to join but they would still have to add all their gpu libraries. It would also lock their designs in with AMD to examine since AMD would get access to all the calls Nv hardware makes and Nvidia would have to start adding new ones for new gpus in advance.

But the main thing keeping Nv is probably their own arrogance knowing that DX12 will come sooner or later.

HSA stands for hetrogenous system architecture and is when the cpu and gpu can look into the memory bulge (huma) the apu is about creating a low latency environment along with huma to make it worth to execute code on the much faster paralel gpu cores. OpenCL does the same but has major latency problems that is why it only really works for big heavy tasks rather than small things which help speed up the programs we use today.

How many of your 340 or so games are graphicly demanding and demanding on the cpu because I doubt it are more than 50 to begin with. 20AAA titles is a huge win and with all the engines that now support it is now easier than ever to support Mantle on those engines.

Even if DX12 and openGL win in 2 years from now AMD wins on sales due to them being a capable platform even when they won't catch up in integer and floating on the cpu cores. Which is quite unlikely with Jim Keller back onboard.

I've been also underwhelmed by Kaveri's HSA since there is really no software out there supporting it I would like to see browsers and video players make use of it to conserve power in mobile. the RPCS3 developers don't like the idea they say but this may also be due to the sheer complexity it would bring maybe in a couple of years after they have the recompiler done.

I read reviews on driver revisions and if I actually have problems with my cards I report about that on the forum. Like I did with Thief which wouldn't work smooth with my 5870's in CF.
Edited by maarten12100 - 4/5/14 at 12:17pm
post #56 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by maarten12100 View Post

Well the rest of the forum kinda views it this way Nvidia could adopt Mantle for their Kepler lineup and they wouldn't have to do something like adopt GCN. The can get support for the cpu part if they were to join but they would still have to add all their gpu libraries. It would also lock their designs in with AMD to examine since AMD would get access to all the calls Nv hardware makes and Nvidia would have to start adding new ones for new gpus in advance.

But the main thing keeping Nv is probably their own arrogance knowing that DX12 will come sooner or later.

HSA stands for hetrogenous system architecture and is when the cpu and gpu can look into the memory bulge (huma) the apu is about creating a low latency environment along with huma to make it worth to execute code on the much faster paralel gpu cores. OpenCL does the same but has major latency problems that is why it only really works for big heavy tasks rather than small things which help speed up the programs we use today.

How many of your 340 or so games are graphicly demanding and demanding on the cpu because I doubt it are more than 50 to begin with. 20AAA titles is a huge win and with all the engines that now support it is now easier than ever to support Mantle on those engines.

Even if DX12 and openGL win in 2 years from now AMD wins on sales due to them being a capable platform even when they won't catch up in integer and floating on the cpu cores. Which is quite unlikely with Jim Keller back onboard.

I've been also underwhelmed by Kaveri's HSA since there is really no software out there supporting it I would like to see browsers and video players make use of it to conserve power in mobile. the RPCS3 developers don't like the idea they say but this may also be due to the sheer complexity it would bring maybe in a couple of years after they have the recompiler done.

I read reviews on driver revisions and if I actually have problems with my cards I report about that on the forum. Like I did with Thief which wouldn't work smooth with my 5870's in CF.

well it's not arrogance they just don't want to give their secrets away to AMD or atleast it seems that way.
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post #57 of 77
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cdoublejj View Post

well it's not arrogance they just don't want to give their secrets away to AMD or atleast it seems that way.
a understandable move still it may be a better corporate choice rather than losing in RTS and multiplayer games that offer Mantle support.
post #58 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by maarten12100 View Post

a understandable move still it may be a better corporate choice rather than losing in RTS and multiplayer games that offer Mantle support.

i don't think that many people buy their cards solely for 1 or 2 games.
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post #59 of 77
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cdoublejj View Post

i don't think that many people buy their cards solely for 1 or 2 games.
It will make AMD cards look better in reviews of those particular games but will also add if the game is in a larger lineup of games.
post #60 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by cdoublejj View Post

are you crazy!? open source drivers rob tons of FPS they also don't work right on some cards. on top this i don't run linux on my sig rig, i run it on Core 2 haf which has a GTX480.

the issues i'm having with Hd4850s and HD2600 is out side of gaming, with stuff like web browsing and coin minig, actual i can't even mine coins at all on my HD4850s the driver is flatout missing the SDK or something crazy it insta crashes them inner and they are at stock clocks.

Have you tried the open souce drivers in the last year? They have really matured with all the help provided by AMD. AMD has really improved their open source support. The 4xxx series to 6xxx series perform extremely well with 3D acceleration with the open source drivers. I personally use the open source drivers on my laptop with arch and have full 3D acceleration and power management.

Not saying its all great for AMD on Linux but compared to what the drivers were in the mid 2000's it's like day and night. Back then 80% of the time you couldn't even get past the installer screen.

It does suck that AMD dropped support for the DX10 cards, but it isn't like Nvidia doesn't do the same. They dropped support for there DX10 cards as well too. Nvidia "might" have better support for their older cards but they still have random bugs that Nvidia will never fix. I just hope one day windows can get open source drivers for Nvidia and AMD cards. Only way to fix the dropping of support.
Edited by orlfman - 4/5/14 at 2:27pm
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AMD Ryzen R7 1800x Asus X370 Crosshair Vi Hero Sapphire RX 580 Nitro+ LE G.skill Flare X 3200 2x8 16gb 
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2x Western Digital Black 2TB 2x 512GB Samsung 850 Pro 1x 512GB Samsung 950 Pro Noctua NH-D15S + 2x Corsair ML120's 
OSMonitorKeyboardPower
Windows 10 Education Asus MG279 Ducky One White & Grey - Cherry Reds Evga Supernova G3 750 
CaseMouse
Corsair Air 740 Steelseries Rival 700 
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CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
AMD Ryzen R7 1800x Asus X370 Crosshair Vi Hero Sapphire RX 580 Nitro+ LE G.skill Flare X 3200 2x8 16gb 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveCooling
2x Western Digital Black 2TB 2x 512GB Samsung 850 Pro 1x 512GB Samsung 950 Pro Noctua NH-D15S + 2x Corsair ML120's 
OSMonitorKeyboardPower
Windows 10 Education Asus MG279 Ducky One White & Grey - Cherry Reds Evga Supernova G3 750 
CaseMouse
Corsair Air 740 Steelseries Rival 700 
  hide details  
Reply
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