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post #11 of 17
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by threephi View Post

What motherboard are you using? The case is designed for mini-ITX boards, and those should all be the same size.
They are the same size, but it's the layout that causes problems. The radiator fans overlap the motherboard slightly, so if the motherboard has a bunch of plugs and stuff right up against the edge the fans won't fit. The side clockwise from the IO panel needs to have a bit of room at the edge.



Other boards generally have plugs and stuff where my fans need to go.



Pause this video at 0:33 and you can see what I mean about the fans.
Edited by Pixelmancer - 4/10/14 at 11:59am
post #12 of 17
So that's the mobo you're using (ASRock Z87E-ITX)? That's the exact same one used in the corsair build thumb.gif

Anyway, those kinds of concerns are precisely why motherboard specification standards are established--to normalize physical clearances and the maximum "envelope" that the board will occupy, so multiple manufacturers can count on everything being compatible. If they say there's 55mm clearance, that means up to the perimeter of the board--nothing should overhang if it's within that measurement. It's going to be a tight fit for sure, but it seems to me it should fit.
Edited by threephi - 4/10/14 at 12:08pm
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post #13 of 17
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by threephi View Post

So that's the mobo you're using (ASRock Z87E-ITX)? That's the exact same one used in the corsair build thumb.gif

Anyway, those kinds of concerns are precisely why motherboard specification standards are established--to normalize physical clearances and the maximum "envelope" that the board will occupy, so multiple manufacturers can count on everything being compatible. If they say there's 55mm clearance, that means up to the perimeter of the board--nothing should overhang if it's within that measurement. It's going to be a tight fit for sure, but it seems to me it should fit.
The fans do overhang, as you can see for yourself in the last video I posted. The 55mm they gave was for the specific motherboard they used. Anything near the edge of the board on the side where the 240mm radiator is will block the fans. Here's one example. The relevant part is at 4:43 to 5:31.

As you can see, the edge of the motherboard gives 50mm of room. It's only if you use a motherboard with nothing on that edge, such as the ASRock, that you have 55mm.
post #14 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pixelmancer View Post

The fans do overhang, as you can see for yourself in the last video I posted. The 55mm they gave was for the specific motherboard they used. Anything near the edge of the board on the side where the 240mm radiator is will block the fans. Here's one example. The relevant part is at 4:43 to 5:31.

As you can see, the edge of the motherboard gives 50mm of room. It's only if you use a motherboard with nothing on that edge, such as the ASRock, that you have 55mm.
I confess that I'm a bit dumbfounded why you are so dead-set in not believing what Corsair's own tech blog says about its own product. People just never give motherboard clearances the way you are interpreting it; the measurement always means to the edge of the PCB. And I'd think you'd be happy that you can move forward with your build, which looks like a sweet project. I hope you go through with it and post pics! But I'll try one more stab at it.

I don't see any fans overhanging in either video. In fact I see a lot of really clear evidence that they do not.

Look carefully at the first one you linked to, from the Corsair build on the Z87E-ITX, around that same 33 second mark. Look at the white printing on the motherboard along the edge next to the fan, and compare that to the product image (from the ASRock product page).

If the fans were overhanging by 5mm we wouldn't see any part of that little block of print, indicated by the arrows, that comes right up to the extreme edge of the PCB; instead we see all of it. Looks like zero overhang to me.

In the second video, I don't see any rulers or other devices that show us that measurement, nor any mention at all of what the clearance actually is. She also mis-states the thickness of the h100i's radiator as 25mm when according to Corsair's product page, it is 27mm. She says she thinks the h100i (52mm thick) fits "perfectly" and speculates that the case was designed to work well with it (shocker, considering they are both Corsair products). Easy installation to me means that you have a little bit of room left over to play with, let's pick a number, say, here's a wild guess, 3mm? wink.gif

It also seems clear that the motherboard used in the second video, the ASUS Maximus VI Impact, is not the best choice for a custom watercooling build in the 250D, since it has a large daughterboard riser along that edge, the protective shield for which comes right up to the edge of the PCB:

This is from the part in the video around the 5'15" mark where she talks about just barely squeezing in a 30mm rad + 25mm fan. Note that the fan is smack against the riser shield. I would never want a fan 50% choked off like that, but it did fit next to the motherboard, not over it. Anyway, when things are that snug, the difference between fitting and not fitting could be an extra half-turn on all the mounting screws, so maybe she had the trouble she did by not screwing everything in as tightly as possible. But regardless, as the narration of this video clearly says, and this photo clearly shows, she DID make a 30mm rad + 25mm fan fit.

So from what I see, everything in both videos does a pretty good job confirming that the total clearance from the edge of the motherboard is exactly 55mm. Good luck with the build and please post pics when you start thumb.gif
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post #15 of 17
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I don't know what to tell you, man. The daughterboard doesn't go past the edge of the motherboard I don't think, and the video clearly shows that the daughterboard makes contact with the fans and is slightly bent by them. Lauren was worried the daughterboard would snap off and the noise she talked about was obviously the fan blades rubbing, which would kill the motor pretty soon. Seems like conclusive proof of overlapping to me. Plus I've had people on here tell me 30mm won't fit. It also looks like there's slight overlap in the Corsair video to me, and you have to keep in mind that we're seeing it from an angle that would make the overlap seem less too. The daughterboard is on the same edge where all the plugs are on the MSI board.They definitely look tall enough to reach the fans. Don't get me wrong, I really hope you're right and it fits. Do you think Newegg would let me exchange the MSI for the ASRock even if it isn't broken? If so I could test it and answer this once and for all. I wish I could measure this myself. I have the case already, but I don't have the motherboard yet so I can't measure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by threephi View Post

Good luck with the build and please post pics when you start thumb.gif
Thanks. I plan to.
post #16 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pixelmancer View Post

I don't know what to tell you, man. The daughterboard doesn't go past the edge of the motherboard I don't think, and the video clearly shows that the daughterboard makes contact with the fans and is slightly bent by them. Lauren was worried the daughterboard would snap off and the noise she talked about was obviously the fan blades rubbing, which would kill the motor pretty soon. Seems like conclusive proof of overlapping to me. Plus I've had people on here tell me 30mm won't fit. It also looks like there's slight overlap in the Corsair video to me, and you have to keep in mind that we're seeing it from an angle that would make the overlap seem less too. The daughterboard is on the same edge where all the plugs are on the MSI board.They definitely look tall enough to reach the fans. Don't get me wrong, I really hope you're right and it fits. Do you think Newegg would let me exchange the MSI for the ASRock even if it isn't broken? If so I could test it and answer this once and for all. I wish I could measure this myself. I have the case already, but I don't have the motherboard yet so I can't measure.
Thanks. I plan to.
I agree fully about the daughterboard. Based on the product images from the ASUS site and newegg, to me it looks like the shield goes right up to the edge of the mini-ITX 170mm envelope. It has to, because if it went outside that box, ASUS would probably not legally be able to advertise it as a mini-ITX board. And the rad + fan go right up against the edge of it, which means it doesn't overlap anything.

In that build in the video, something was probably off slightly to make it such a tight squeeze. It wouldn't take much when you get right up against a physical limit like that. Two-tenths of a mm thinner, and it slides right in, but two-tenths wider, and you might need a mallet to drive it into place tongue.gif Maybe the shield was a little bent out, maybe the rad mounting bracket was a little bent in, maybe that individual rad or fan was 0.1mm beyond spec, maybe the fan mounting screw had a rounded head which made it protrude out and rub against the shield, maybe you could loosen all the mobo mounting screws and slide it away a hair--could have been any number of things, or several at once. I would never want parts so close that they touch like that regardless, which is another reason why I think that ASUS board is poorly suited for that build. And if the fan was slightly bent from being forced against something that covers half its surface area, that would explain the rubbing sounds etc. But there's no doubt in my mind that the space she was working with was specced at 55mm. The 52mm h100i fit easily, then she took a 30mm rad and a 25 mm fan, and just barely squeaked them into the same 55mm space. I still don't see how you can call that overlapping, but I respect your stubbornness. biggrin.gif

In the corsair video, I thought about whether we were seeing under the fan a little bit due to the angle of view, and dismissed it. I hope we can agree, based on the photos I put in the last post with the arrows and the printing on the motherboard, that we are seeing all the way to the edge of the motherboard one way or the other. If there were an overhang of 5mm (based on the "true" clearance being 50mm as you had presumed), that would also require the bottom of the fans to be mounted high enough over the board to allow us to see that far underneath it. The angle of view is rather steep, to my eye it's around 75° (90 being straight down) but let's call it 65° for the sake of argument. A little quick trig shows that the bottom of the fan would have to be 10.72mm above the mobo to reveal 5mm underneath it (5mm * tan(angle) = height above the board). And there ain't no way there's that kind of gap there based on all the other images I've seen.

I've actually spent some time tonight trying to find a good view of the 250D interior that shows how the fan/rad mount lines up with the mobo pedestal, and I finally got one:

Open up that photo and look at it full size. Look at the tops of the standoffs on the motherboard pedestal, and line them up with where the fan is. To my eye, this shows that the bottom of the fan actually sits slightly below the level of the motherboard PCB.

So... I think you can do your build confident that a 30mm rad will fit. It might be tight but it will fit. thumb.gif

About Newegg, to my understanding they will charge a restocking fee if you return something for a different item or a refund without it being broken. If it hasn't shipped yet you might be able to cancel the order but there might be a fee for that as well. I've ordered tons of stuff from them over the years but I've actually never returned anything except for RMA's.
Edited by threephi - 4/10/14 at 9:03pm
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post #17 of 17
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I have my doubts, but we'll see I guess. Newegg's return policy for the Z87I looks like I should be able to get a refund if it doesn't fit, so I'll be able to tell you for sure in a couple of months. Next month I'm getting the PSU and fans. I'm getting a game next month since it's been a long time since I have so that eats up the painting budget. In early June I can get the motherboard, painting stuff and a radiator so I'll have painting pictures to share and a definite answer about what will fit.
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