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post #11 of 64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kane2207 View Post

Wait, so at 1000 P/E cycles, I would need to write 25GB per day for an expected 4.7 years? I don't see how this is a concern really, that's still a fair sized chunk of data to have to write every day for the next 4 years, I bet some people get nowhere near that figure. Besides, I reduced my page file size to 100MB about 3 years ago. I'm more concerned about one of my mechanical drives giving up the ghost randomly than I am about SSD wear.

25 GB / day for 4.7 years at a 3X write amplification would result in 1000 physical P/E cycles on a 128 GB drive. It would be 333x the capacity of the drive in data.

I have no idea whether the wear level count on that screenshot above is giving a # for actual data P/E cycles or physical P/E cycles.

I'm not saying a SSD isn't worth it. It definitely is. Just keep an eye on how much wear you're putting on it and replace it BEFORE you start getting failures.

Once you start having Program/Erase Fails or retired blocks, it's definitely time to replace the drive.

I also would not get a drive from a cheap manufacturer. If you do you might run into firmware/memory manager issues that'll brick the drive before the nand wears out.
post #12 of 64
That's still >40TB of data, how many users do you think get anywhere near that on an OS drive
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post #13 of 64
As Kane said

Who writes 25gb a day, yearly or monthly, let alone weekly?

I purchased my 840 Pro due to the warranty, and the higher wear ratings. But it is definitely overkill for me.

So far (according to Samsung Magician), I have written .69tb of data since I purchased the drive.

I received the drive on 1/24/14, including today, that is 73 days.

690gb/73days = 9.45gb a day

This is including 3 Windows installation (one for my laptop, and two for my PC) and 3 games (~10gb avg each) downloaded each time.

If I set a wear out level of 200tb, or even say the 128tb you specified for a 128gb, I still have 127.31 tb of writes to go. At my current rate (it would probably slow down as I don't plan on reformatting soon), it would take me 36.9 years to use up my 127.31tb of writing left.

Needless to say, I'm not worried, and I don't believe any regular user should be either.

Besides, can't you still recover information from a worn out SSD? The cells still contain the info, it is just harder, and therefore costly to recover said info.
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post #14 of 64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gunzkevin1 View Post

As Kane said

Who writes 25gb a day, yearly or monthly, let alone weekly?

I purchased my 840 Pro due to the warranty, and the higher wear ratings. But it is definitely overkill for me.

So far (according to Samsung Magician), I have written .69tb of data since I purchased the drive.

I received the drive on 1/24/14, including today, that is 73 days.

690gb/73days = 9.45gb a day

This is including 3 Windows installation (one for my laptop, and two for my PC) and 3 games (~10gb avg each) downloaded each time.

If I set a wear out level of 200tb, or even say the 128tb you specified for a 128gb, I still have 127.31 tb of writes to go. At my current rate (it would probably slow down as I don't plan on reformatting soon), it would take me 36.9 years to use up my 127.31tb of writing left.

Needless to say, I'm not worried, and I don't believe any regular user should be either.

Besides, can't you still recover information from a worn out SSD? The cells still contain the info, it is just harder, and therefore costly to recover said info.

Uh, waiting for a drive to fail then recovering it isn't an option for most people. Hard drive recovery bills can easily be $2 - 3K or higher.

For most people, if their hard drive bricks the data's gone for good, because they're not going to spend a few grand to get the data back off of it.

Btw, I've had my 256 GB drive for 3 days and I'm up to 238 GB of writes. 80 of that's from copying my old drive onto the SSD. Not sure how much the drive was shipped with (presumably they do some kind of testing). I don't currently do any kind of programming, but if I do again, that can easily burn through a lot of writes since you're constantly building, editing, building, editing, etc. I also run virtual machines for web browsing and run other software (like bitcoin clients) that do small writes 24/7. Any TV/movies are a gig or a few gigs each.
post #15 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by demoship View Post

Uh, waiting for a drive to fail then recovering it isn't an option for most people. Hard drive recovery bills can easily be $2 - 3K or higher.

For most people, if their hard drive bricks the data's gone for good, because they're not going to spend a few grand to get the data back off of it.

Btw, I've had my 256 GB drive for 3 days and I'm up to 238 GB of writes. 80 of that's from copying my old drive onto the SSD. Not sure how much the drive was shipped with (presumably they do some kind of testing). I don't currently do any kind of programming, but if I do again, that can easily burn through a lot of writes since you're constantly building, editing, building, editing, etc. I also run virtual machines for web browsing and run other software (like bitcoin clients) that do small writes 24/7. Any TV/movies are a gig or a few gigs each.

Well, typically when a modern SSD fails, it can not be written to. It can be read from and copied to a new drive so no files are lost. But even if this fails, and the information is important enough, there are recovery methods.

If someone is doing something what will use all of the writes of an SSD, they are most likely a power user and will know this fact. They will either opt for a mechanical drive, or face the risk of a failing SSD.
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post #16 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by demoship View Post

Uh, waiting for a drive to fail then recovering it isn't an option for most people. Hard drive recovery bills can easily be $2 - 3K or higher.

For most people, if their hard drive bricks the data's gone for good, because they're not going to spend a few grand to get the data back off of it.

Btw, I've had my 256 GB drive for 3 days and I'm up to 238 GB of writes. 80 of that's from copying my old drive onto the SSD. Not sure how much the drive was shipped with (presumably they do some kind of testing). I don't currently do any kind of programming, but if I do again, that can easily burn through a lot of writes since you're constantly building, editing, building, editing, etc. I also run virtual machines for web browsing and run other software (like bitcoin clients) that do small writes 24/7. Any TV/movies are a gig or a few gigs each.

For the VAST majority of users, and well over 90% of the enthusiast market there isnt an SSD made that is in danger of hitting its write cap in less than 3 or 4 years.
And thats assuming someone is writing 25+ GB per day.

There are enterprise SSDs for loads more similar to yours that have much higher caps on write cycles.
They are, of course, more expensive.
And using a Mechanical drive for storing media is still the common practice.

It sounds to me like using an SSD for your needs is a calculated decision in a specific situation that is not indicative of some danger to standard user, or even normal enthusiasts.
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post #17 of 64
What are you talking about people?The moment you put your data on any kind of media ,even your brain ,that data is in risk so back up is what normal people do in this situation.I am not normal so i make back up of back up.
Edited by Unit Igor - 4/7/14 at 12:10am
post #18 of 64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unit Igor View Post

What are you talking about people?The moment you put your data on any kind of media ,even your brain ,that data is in risk so back up is what normal people do in this situation.I am not normal so i make back up of back up.

I back up important data.

My app/game installations and stuff like game save files I don't consider 'important data' so if my drive crashes, it's going to take me some time to get everything I need installed again.

And btw, I'm up to 306 GB of writes now (up from 238 GB earlier today). Most of that is because I did some config changes on my VMs, made a new one and backed em up, but in the past few hours I had about 5 GB of writes and I wasn't doing anything at all that used the drive. (just browsing the web, played some games)

So I have no idea how people are averaging 10 GB / day in usage.
post #19 of 64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gunzkevin1 View Post

Well, typically when a modern SSD fails, it can not be written to. It can be read from and copied to a new drive so no files are lost. But even if this fails, and the information is important enough, there are recovery methods.

If someone is doing something what will use all of the writes of an SSD, they are most likely a power user and will know this fact. They will either opt for a mechanical drive, or face the risk of a failing SSD.

Actually I think when a SSD fails, the firmware in the drive figures that out because it's out of blocks to reallocate to, and the current write it's doing fails.

At that point most firmware doesn't handle it very well and just totally bricks. So it doesn't retain the ability to read what's still on the drive.
post #20 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by demoship View Post

Umm, platter disks have increased hugely in size and gotten much cheaper per GB, and have higher data density, but are not any more fragile then they were a decade ago (if anything they're more robust). I don't see why they can't improve the technology for NAND in the same way, to be cheaper and denser, but without being more fragile.

Totally different mechanisms of operation and failure. They aren't comparable in the slightest.

Magnetic platters never wear out unless something physically touches them, and the moving parts in mechanical HDDs have not been getting more fragile.

You cannot write/erase NAND without degrading it, and the thickness of the oxide layer that is being worn down shrinks with the manufacturing process.

There are some ideas on how to mitagate or repair wear that have not been tried commercially yet, but until these are implemented NAND is not going to get more durable. By the time they are implemented, SSDs may not even use NAND.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gunzkevin1 View Post

Who writes 25gb a day, yearly or monthly, let alone weekly?

I average more than 25GB of writes per day. Hell, I probably average more than 25GB of downloads a day.

A single minute of lossless FRAPS video (1080p, 60fps) is in the ballpark of 10GB. My video array in my primary system has been there for about 18 months; it's seen nearly a petabyte of writes in that time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gunzkevin1 View Post

Besides, can't you still recover information from a worn out SSD? The cells still contain the info, it is just harder, and therefore costly to recover said info.

The duration a NAND cell holds data decreases with wear, and NAND is generally considered to have been worn out when it can only be sure to retain data for a year. If you keep using it until it stops working, your data may already be vanishing. Going to depend on the drive.
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