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If games are art, then you cannot complain about Mass Effect 3. - Page 2

post #11 of 27
This is just going to be FULL of spoilers

The problem with ME3's ending wasn't that it was essentially 3 choices; it was that the presentation of the story after arriving on earth just went downhill so incredibly fast. It would be like a great movie ending with a 10 minute narration describing (poorly) what happens: "And then, it turned out that Darth Vader was actually good, and killed Palpatine. Then he died. Luke went back to Endor, and there was a party. The end". ME3's ending just didn't do justice to what it set up in ME1 and the first 80% of ME3 (I'm not touching ME2 - that thing was a disaster for SO many reasons). ME1 and ME3 setup this epic story witch an incomprehensible villain. Then, at the end of ME3, they just tear it ALL down. The Starchild's own explanation makes no sense; to prevent MACHINES from killing ORGANICS, he's going to USE MACHINES to KILL ORGANICS. It makes absolutely no sense. Then he uses absolutes like "machines always rebel" - well, if you managed to fix the issue with the Geth, then no, they don't.

This youtube series basically points out exactly WHY ME3's ending is just so, so horrifically bad:
(there's a bit of language)

That's part 5; earlier he looks at the rest of the game, and later on he looks at the Extended cut. I'd really recommend looking at the whole series. Then watch the ME1 and ME2 videos as well (they're good, just very long).

It also doesn't help that Casey Hudson - the lead on the Mass Effect series - pretty much lied about the ending. In an interview just before release (can't find it) he says that "Mass Effect 3's ending wont be as simple as "A, B, C"... but that's what it is. It's exactly ABC. You pick green, blue or red (or nothing in the EC version). An ending which isn't as simple as ABC hints towards something like 'The Witcher's' endings... of which there are 16.

The problem isn't that "you can't judge art"; it's that the art just isn't as good as people expect. ME1 is basically a masterpiece. Yes, it has some minor flaws, but over-all the story is pretty much perfect. ME2, disregarding some very stupid things is also fairly good. ME3s story, up until earth is also very good. Then it appears that no one had any idea on how to end the game, and they slapped the ending together with either no budget, no time, or both.
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post #12 of 27
Sorry Doomlord I'm not watching that video, because you're flat out wrong.

Out of all the games ME games, I think ME 3 was the best and most complete one, and enjoyed it more than 1 or 2.

I'm not sure what you were expecting to happen after the climax, it's over, deal with it. Just because you wanted to play the after-math doesn't mean the game was bad.

Honestly I think any other ending would have been garbage.
Edited by End3R - 4/8/14 at 3:32pm
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post #13 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by End3R View Post

Sorry Doomlord I'm not watching that video, because you're flat out wrong.

Out of all the games ME games, I think ME 3 was the best and most complete one, and enjoyed it more than 1 or 2.

I'm not sure what you were expecting to happen after the climax, it's over, deal with it. Just because you wanted to play the after-math doesn't mean the game was bad.

So now my opinion of the art is wrong.... okay.

In any event, all I was 'expecting' was an ending that made sense in terms of narrative. KOTOR's ending made sense - it was fairly simple, but it made sense; there weren't crazy plot holes, etc. The ending of Dragon Age: Origins is the same - it's not massively complex, but it makes sense. ME3's ending(s) is just full of plot-holes, inconsistencies and just general problems that literally any writer could have fixed - easily.

Regardless - if you're a fan or not of ME3, I'd still recommend watching the video I linked. It gives a very good literary analysis of ME3's ending (other parts cover the whole story).
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post #14 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by doomlord52 View Post

So now my opinion of the art is wrong.... okay.

In any event, all I was 'expecting' was an ending that made sense in terms of narrative. KOTOR's ending made sense - it was fairly simple, but it made sense; there weren't crazy plot holes, etc. The ending of Dragon Age: Origins is the same - it's not massively complex, but it makes sense. ME3's ending(s) is just full of plot-holes, inconsistencies and just general problems that literally any writer could have fixed - easily.

The plot holes weren't that big to begin with, I liked the ending before the director's cut (which answered those plot holes), but like boredgunner indicated, it sounds like you definitely haven't replayed it since then.
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post #15 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by End3R View Post

The plot holes weren't that big to begin with, I liked the ending before the director's cut (which answered those plot holes), but like boredgunner indicated, it sounds like you definitely haven't replayed it since then.

I bought and beat the game this year; so yea, I've played it since the EC content. I'd recommend watching the video; there really are a LOT of plot holes (which he covers). I don't have the memory (there are just so many) or skill to convey them nearly as well as Smudboy did.
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post #16 of 27
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by doomlord52 View Post

I bought and beat the game this year; so yea, I've played it since the EC content. I'd recommend watching the video; there really are a LOT of plot holes (which he covers). I don't have the memory (there are just so many) or skill to convey them nearly as well as Smudboy did.

If you want to disagree with the ending thats cool, but to expect the developers to make the ending you want and to criticize them when they do not means that you do not view a video game as a form of art because, like I said before, art does not follow popular demand.
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post #17 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by doomlord52 View Post

I bought and beat the game this year; so yea, I've played it since the EC content. I'd recommend watching the video; there really are a LOT of plot holes (which he covers). I don't have the memory (there are just so many) or skill to convey them nearly as well as Smudboy did.

I don't need to watch a youtube video over an hour long to listen to someone whining about things like "ZOMG THE PHOTON STABALIZERS DONT WORK THAT WAY SO ITS IMPOSSIBLE FOR THEM TO MAKE THE JUMP TO HYPERSPACE" Not that, that is what they are saying, but it might as well be.

42a7583c30c7fb6f24da344ba4ba6634676360ef08767bedb6ae0054bf4edc2a.jpg
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post #18 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thready View Post

If you want to disagree with the ending thats cool, but to expect the developers to make the ending you want and to criticize them when they do not means that you do not view a video game as a form of art because, like I said before, art does not follow popular demand.
That's not what I'm saying at all. What I wanted (as did a lot of people) is an ending that actually made sense - ME3's does not. We/I also wanted an ending which lived up to the standards of narrating which the ME series itself created - it did not. An unconventional ending is fine; any ending is fine - provided that it is done WELL. ME3's ending simply was not done 'well' in any way, shape or form.
Quote:
Originally Posted by End3R View Post

I don't need to watch a youtube video over an hour long to listen to someone whining about things like "ZOMG THE PHOTON STABALIZERS DONT WORK THAT WAY SO ITS IMPOSSIBLE FOR THEM TO MAKE THE JUMP TO HYPERSPACE" Not that, that is what they are saying, but it might as well be.

42a7583c30c7fb6f24da344ba4ba6634676360ef08767bedb6ae0054bf4edc2a.jpg

Disregarding evidence counter to your own view? How open minded of you.

The plot holes are much larger than slight inconsistencies or "photon stabilizers" working differently than they should:

1. Why is the star child in the form of the kid from the beginning of the game as well as the dreams?
2. How did anderson get ahead of shepard, when there's only one way to the control room?
3. Where did TIM come from?
4. How does TIM magically have the ability to control people's motion?
5. How did Harbinger's laser not kill shepard? How did it not kill anderson? How did anderson get to the beam "just behind" shepard, yet end up in front later on?
6. Why does Harbinger just leave after shooting shepard?
7. How is shepard even alive during the final star-child scene? There's no environmental control there.
8. When Harbinger blasts shepard, where did the magic infinite-ammo pistol come from? How does it even have infinite ammo?
9. Why do Sovreign (ME1) and the Spider-Reaper on Rannock (ME3) trump up the reaper's purpose to the level of it "transcending your existence" and "being so far beyond what [you] can understand", when the starchild can basically summarize it in one sentence?
10. Why is the starchild's explanation incredibly illogical?
a. Why would the reapers kill ALL advanced life, but only harvest ONE species?
b. Why does the starchild contradict itself with the explanation: machines rebel and kill organics, so to save the organics, I (a machine) must kill organics.
11. Why are there bodies teleported to the random rooms in the citadel? What's the point of this?
12. Why does the console in the 'TIM' room have a magic floating elevator? Why not the 'teleporter' style beam from before?


The list goes on and on and on. Nothing in the ending makes any sense.
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post #19 of 27
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by doomlord52 View Post

That's not what I'm saying at all. What I wanted (as did a lot of people) is an ending that actually made sense

What if the intent of the designers was to leave it open to interpretation and discussion? I think the extended cut was great, however, I do not think that it was necessary. If you want to criticize the ending fine, but then don't call it art. Call it a community story.
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post #20 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thready View Post

What if the intent of the designers was to leave it open to interpretation and discussion? I think the extended cut was great, however, I do not think that it was necessary. If you want to criticize the ending fine, but then don't call it art. Call it a community story.

It's not even possible do that. The ending was simply so poorly done that (due to the above plot holes/problems), discussing the ending becomes hard. The initial fan idea, the "indoctrination theory" made a lot of sense by piecing together the mess Bioware gave fans. The extended cut pretty much disproved that theory. Now all we're left with is the same questions. The main problem is that the ending is fundamentally flawed; the starchild's argument makes absolutely no sense from a logical standpoint.

The argument is that all synthetics WILL rebel and kill their creators; but the Geth prove that this is not the case. Only due to circumstance (and self defense... and reaper intervention) were the Geth in a situation in which they COULD kill their creators. And even then, Shepard, an Organic/Synthetic hybrid (ME2), pretty much had final say. Why would the starchild be so concerned about Organics not being able survive against synthetics when a SINGLE organic with synthetic implants could pretty much stop one of the deadliest forces around?

Further more, why do the reapers portray the problem which the starchild is SUPPOSED to fix better than anything else in the ME universe? In Mass Effect, no synthetic system has come close to destroying all organics, let alone even one species. However, the reapers, the deadliest synthetics ever, go around killing pretty much ALL organics every 50,000 years. Then ontop of that, you've got the problem of the reapers basically reaping everyone, regardless them having made synthetics. The korgans, thanks to the genophage were incapable of making synthetics; but the spider reaper sent to tuchunka pretty much proves that the reapers wanted to reap them. Then, what happens if in a cycle no one actually makes synthetics?

Then there's the whole issue of the crucible; it's a one-shot-kill, galaxy-wide Synthetic 'kill' device. You press the button, and the synthetics die; all of them. However, instead of building that, and using it only if/when synthetics became a such a threat where the existence of a species comes into question, the starchild instead opts to build giant death robots which systematically kill (pretty much) everyone everywhere. Why? This is horribly inefficient.

Then lastly, you've got the whole inconsistency with the stories "complexity". Sovereign, Harbinger, etc. all state that the purpose of the reapers is incredibly complicated; that no one could understand it. However, this is obviously not the case, since the starchild explained the ENTIRE purpose of the reapers in a few sentences. On top of that, you've got the whole "you are chaos, we are order" quip from the reaper on Rannock; this simply isn't true. The reapers, being synthetic ARE chaos; they KILL organics - the very thing they are supposed to save. Meanwhile, shepard, who, being an organic is supposedly "chaos", literally just created order between the Geth and Quarian (provided the right choices are made) - order between synthetics and organics.

Seriously; its just too convoluted. There's too many inconsistencies, plot holes, contradictions and down-right stupid problems with ME3s ending for it to be "open to interpretation". The ending to 2001, The Shinning, Inception, etc. are open to interpretation. They end in a solidly constructed way which doesn't fall apart at the slightest investigation. In the shinning, we're left with valid questions: How DID jack get out of the freezer? What's the deal with the care-taker? In 2001, we're left to ask ourselves what the monoliths were, and what the whole end 'scene' was supposed to represent. Even inception (Not a fan, tbh) leaves us with a fairly well constructed indeterminate ending which COULD be interpreted in multiple ways (as long as you don't do the physics regarding the top).

Take 2001: the monoliths (according to the books) were supposed to help humanity evolve; to become more advanced. Imagine if every time the monoliths were activated, they released tons of gamma radiation; killing everyone within a large distance. It would make literally no sense. THIS is the problem with ME3's ending; it contradicts itself almost non-stop.

/edit

Furthermore, the synthesis ending doesn't actually work in regards to the problem laid out by the starchild. When the crucible goes off, it combines all existing life and synthetics together, making "a new framework" (whatever that is). But what's to stop these new hybrids from making better synthetics that eventually kill their creators? Nothing. Literally 1/3 (1/4 for EC), of the ending is invalid based upon the principles the ending itself lays out.

In addition, the original (non EC) ending literally proves that the ending isn't well written. In the arrival DLC, blowing up the Alpha relay basically destroys the entire system. The starchild states that any of the options destroys the relays... which would kill everyone pretty much everywhere. Why would you want to do this? This was later changed in the EC, where the relays are only damaged. Why would they change this important bit? Then there's just the general inconsistency of the relay explosion thing. In ME1, its established that the citadel IS a giant mass relay, and in both the destroy and synthesis endings, the citadel explodes... but it clearly doesn't destroy earth, or the solar system. This isn't even a trivial "error"; it's HUGE. Shepard blowing up the Alpha relay is the reason for shepard being kicked off the normandy at the beginning of ME3 (well, its mentioned). You can't just have a relay explode, destroying a system, being a massive plot point, and then do the exact same thing later on and have it NOT destroy the solar system. It makes no sense.

Then there's the question as to why the Crucible destroys earth in the "Destroy" ending if your readiness rating is low enough... Why would that cause this? For one, it's just poor presentation, as the player feels lied to (the starchild makes no mention of the entire earth being destroyed), but also, its illogical. If your readiness is low enough, and somehow influences the quality of the crucible (Despite it being based on the same plans, regardless of readiness), why do the control and synthesis endings NOT destroy the earth with a low enough rating?
Edited by doomlord52 - 4/8/14 at 5:18pm
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Base2
(21 items)
 
Edi
(13 items)
 
Zenbook
(7 items)
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Core i7 2600k @ 4.75ghz @ 1.352v Asus p8p67 Deluxe Asus GTX 970 Strix ADATA XPG1 (2x8gb) @ 1600mhz 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
2x OCZ Agility 3  2x Toshiba 2tb Sata 3 OCZ Vertex 2 Seagate Barracuda 500gb 
Optical DriveCoolingCoolingCooling
LG Blu-Ray-RW  Corsair H70 3x Corsair AF 120 Silent Edition 2x AF 140 
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Windows 7 x64 Home Premium Asus VG248QE Asus VG248QE Ducky Shine 3 (MX Black) 
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