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[Various] AMD R9 295x2 Reviews - Page 34

post #331 of 539
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nickyvida View Post

Couldnt we scale the new material chips like graphene on a big process and scale it down like what weve been doing all this while with silicon chips?

That's the plan. It also (theoretically) gets unstable when just a little smaller than silicone.

Practical mainstream application is another subject. There are patents, manufacturing costs and the international economical state that push back the day when mainstream usage becomes a reality.
post #332 of 539
Quote:
Originally Posted by PsyM4n View Post

gets unstable when just a little smaller than silicone.

Yeah, that's what I get too, which is a bit pessimistic. Electronics still can't split the atom so to speak, so even if it goes lower - and it may not if the cost dictates to not even try it - it will still find a standstill very soon. It really seems like from now on and for the next 10-20 years we'll be getting 10 to 25% max performance increases every 2-3 years and it may worsen in pace with time. And at a certain point shrinking stops (~8nm, ~10nm, ~4nm depended on who you ask).

Or, we find something else.

I'm hopeful actually, but not for silicon or even graphene as it is now portrayed, certainly not about silicon as it is.
Edited by fateswarm - 4/11/14 at 9:20am
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post #333 of 539
Quote:
Originally Posted by fateswarm View Post

But we are not in the 90s or even early 00s anymore. We are in 2014. A year that to get from 28nm to 20nm or 22nm to 14nm you don't just improve photolithography, you create whole new paradigms, of multiple patterning and other hacky stuff. We can't just go Moore's Law, we struggle to do it even approximately (actually Moore's Law has totally failed for a few years now, the pretense is only held because of Multicore processors).

And let's not even go to 10nm and beyond. That's the point most scientists of the field believe conventional silicon technology will find its ultimate death (and it won't even be fast, east step will be harder and harder to achieve). Enter other technologies like graphene or graphene hybrids or even biological/chemical computers because with conventional silicon, we are at its last days. But even those are uncertain.
Intel stated the size reduction would outweigh the higher transistor price associated with a smaller node.


One should take into consideration development costs however because changes were needed to maintain that line.



Also AMD stated it would be feasible to shrink the Xbox 1 and PS4 SoC to 20nm later on.

And then there is this Intel's lead is really only in node and even that shows signs of diminishing. Shrinking will eventually no longer outweigh itself but it seems that 20nm and possibly 14nm are still doable.
Quote:
One of the big questions on Intel’s foundry strategy is: Can they compete on wafer pricing? Fortunately there are now detailed reports that support what most of us fabless folks already know. The simple answer is no, Intel cannot compete with TSMC or Samsung on wafer pricing at 28nm, 20nm, and 14nm.

In fact, recent reports have shown that Intel 32nm versus TSMC 28nm gives TSMC a 30%+ wafer cost advantage. At Intel 22nm versus TSMC 20nm the cost advantage is 35%+. This is an apple to apple comparison with Atom SoC versus ARM SoC silicon. Another key metric is capacity. During the recent investor meeting Intel CFO Stacy Smith claimed Intel was at 80% capacity so that is the number that was used in the wafer cost calculations for both Intel and TSMC. I question this number since Intel has three idle fabs (OR, AZ, Ireland) and TSMC 28nm was at 100% capacity up until recently but I digress…..

On the technical side we now know that, even with Intel’s superior process claims, TSMC 28nm SoCs easily beat Intel at 32nm in both power and performance. TSMC 20nm SoCs will again beat Intel 22nm. 14nm SoCs have yet to launch but one thing I can tell you is that Intel will NOT win business from TSMC’s top customers which will make up more than 50% of fabless revenues:
post #334 of 539
Yes, they sell those products, of course they'll say it's good. But it's not good. Their own products show it right now as we speak.

They told us Moore's Law continues and it never did. It died when it "continued" with multiple cores. CPUs do not get to continue Moore's Law with multiple cores, that's a deception and anyone minimally proficient in technology knows it.

We consistently see how harder it is to bring new products the last 2-8 years without raising prices enormously. It's not their greed, they always were greedy, it's just harder now. e.g. they are locked on 28nm on GPUs and they must raise prices by raising die size to bring something impressive. All this nonsense about "greedy NVIDIA" is myopic. AMD also had to make a smaller chip than the GK110 right now because they obviously have to limit the high costs, there is no other as reasonable explanation.
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post #335 of 539
Quote:
Originally Posted by fateswarm View Post

Yes, they sell those products, of course they'll say it's good. But it's not good. Their own products show it right now as we speak.

They told us Moore's Law continues and it never did. It died when it "continued" with multiple cores. CPUs do not get to continue Moore's Law with multiple cores, that's a deception and anyone minimally proficient in technology knows it.

We consistently see how harder it is to bring new products the last 2-8 years without raising prices enormously. It's not their greed, they always were greedy, it's just harder now. e.g. they are locked on 28nm on GPUs and they must raise prices by raising die size to bring something impressive. All this nonsense about "greedy NVIDIA" is myopic. AMD also had to make a smaller chip than the GK110 right now because they obviously have to limit the high costs, there is no other as reasonable explanation.
And how is that if the programming allows it performance can increase almost linear (there is a limit to how many cores can scale optimum)
I just posted a source showing 20nm at tsmc is 35% cheaper than Intel 22 which is pretty cheap for Intel to make at least they state by the picture I posted.
If there was any real reason to say results deminish then why would every major tech company move to 20nm and for AMD and Intel to 14nm. The pricing clearly is good enough to keep the needed profit margins.
post #336 of 539
Yeah, it is good enough to move forward but with tinier steps every time. It's harder and harder to impress people. All this nonsense about "greedy NVIDIA" is myopic. They don't even see beyond their nose that AMD made a smaller chip than the GK110 right now and high costs would be the only explanation.

Single thread performance is still very important, it will never stop being important. e.g. a game can be aided by plenty of CPU cores, but, if at least a single one of them can't play "parent thread" at least as fast as the minimal FPS you need, it's gonna be limited to the FPS of that single thread.
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post #337 of 539
Quote:
Originally Posted by fateswarm View Post

Yeah, it is good enough to move forward but with tinier steps every time. It's harder and harder to impress people. All this nonsense about "greedy NVIDIA" is myopic. They don't even see beyond their nose that AMD made a smaller chip than the GK110 right now and high costs would be the only explanation.

Single thread performance is still very important, it will never stop being important. e.g. a game can be aided by plenty of CPU cores, but, if at least a single one of them can't play "parent thread" at least as fast as the minimal FPS you need, it's gonna be limited to the FPS of that single thread.

I don't think you understand where "greedy Nvidia" comes from. It's more about them doing things like having Titan-Z not be nearly twice as fast as 295x2 yet costs twice as much. Nvidia has always gone out of their way to screw over the absolute high end to make massive profits. From 8800 Ultra to Titan, it's all the same thing, and every time, there's a few people on the internet who become warriors of their purchases online to defend their purchases.

Yes, Nvidia die size to performance is not nearly as good as AMD's. GK104 has a ton of stuff cut out from it (like it blows at most GPGPU) while Tahiti doesn't, and they're both close in game performance. GK110 and Hawaii situation is similar.

I do not think 295x2 price is that bad given performance. Yeah it is a little more than 290x crossfire, but you get the little things like the case and it comes with AIO liquid cooling. I really wouldn't be surprised if 295x2 was exactly the same type of deal Titan-Z was/is going to be, but AMD beat them to the punch and use their aggressive pricing and die size advantage to make Titan-Z irrelevant.

I'm just glad they did it before a bunch of people bought Titan-Z and we had a new generation of post purchase rationalizers on this forum.
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post #338 of 539
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdlvx View Post

I don't think you understand where "greedy Nvidia" comes from. It's more about them doing things like having Titan..

You don't know my posts here. I've repeatedly said Titan is a luxury product line that is indeed overpriced. The 780 though seems justly priced, at least approximately.

It's the only explanation, since AMD also had a chance now to make a big chip but they made it smaller, they would have no other reason to do it other than cost.

Well, that, or AMD + NVIDIA are a cartel, but I doubt it to be happening in that scale.
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post #339 of 539
Quote:
Originally Posted by criminal View Post

This pricing is madness!

Unless something changes, I will never own another flagship gpu.
Is there a such thing as a flagship? Every 2 weeks a new GPU comes out that is better than the best.
post #340 of 539
Guessing everyone has noticed the prerelease 295x2 at Newegg. Not available yet, but very soon I bet.
The Powercolor and HIS version.
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