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[New Scientist]Pro violinists fail to spot Stradivarius in blind test - Page 6

post #51 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by HanSomPa View Post

Two, you can most certainly do a blind test between a Strad and a modern high end violin.

You don't buy a strad just to play it. You buy it because you want a piece of history that will play just as well as any modern violin.

I own a 1960's Porsche, I don't have it because it is fast, popular, or equal to a modern car. I own it because I love that stupid car.
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post #52 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by RiverOfIce View Post

You don't buy a strad just to play it. You buy it because you want a piece of history that will play just as well as any modern violin.

I own a 1960's Porsche, I don't have it because it is fast, popular, or equal to a modern car. I own it because I love that stupid car.


Indeed. That was something I pointed out pretty early on in this thread. A large part of allure of Strads comes from the history and rarity. Honestly if there was a hundred thousand Strads to the market they would be nowhere near as priced. But then there are people who make claims that no modern instrument can match the Strads in quality/sound which is something I have to call BS on.

The notion that modern day crafts men could not possibly match the works of Mr. Stradivarus is rather condescending. Naturally modern instruments aren't legendary in the way Strads are but how could they be as they haven had the time to become so. 300 years form now people might revere Tim Phillip or some other fiddle maker in the same way. Though that is less like to happen now days as everything is so well documented and its hard for things to become legendary with out an good dose of mystery.
    
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post #53 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by HanSomPa View Post

Really? He replied to you perfectly. A "Golden Age" Stradivarius is hardly distinguishable from a top-tier modern Violin. The blind test proved that. Hence the point of a blind test. As far as measurements and tests are concerned, they are also similar.

No, he didn't. Now, where did I say that Stradis are better than modern violins? I didn't. And where did I say that blind tests aren't useful? Nowhere.

Hence: re-read my statement.

----

In any case, many of you seem to know nothing of the classical culture (and when talking about "high-end musicians" only classical musicians matters, since the other styles barely require any skill when you compare the two. There are exceptions, of course, but this is objectively true).

In my experience, as a cello player myself, people don't "brag" about the instrument they use, or the price-tag, or anything else. You choose an instrument based on the sound (since you test them prior to buying them) and the budget you have. Even if you ask, many musicians will be wary to tell you the price-tag of their instruments. Everybody will share the brand, year, luthier and shop, though, but only if you ask them. Classical instruments aren't "bragging" stuff, since the differences between them are very, very hardly noticeable to the sight. People that have a Strad don't brag about it, or if they do, they do it for a very different reason than you may think. So, why are Strads so interesting?

a) They are loaned to the top tier musicians for free.

b) Everybody identifies them (even people that know nothing on Classical music knows about them, or know that they are damn expensive).

c) They are a historical relic.

d) They are comparable to a top-tier modern violin.

So, what happens when you see a musician with a Strad? You KNOW he is a top-tier player. That is the difference. Since high-end, old string instruments are loaned for free to high-end musicians, you know you have a formidable musician in front of you if he is sporting such a rarity.

Its not about the sound (they aren't better per se), not about the fame, not about bragging, its about an item identifying who is "boss" in the "industry". And its a huge pride to be chosen to sport such an instrument, which has nothing to do with how good or how bad the instrument sounds.

Which is the reason that blind tests make no sense for THIS sort of stuff: you simply know what the Strad is and what isn't. It isn't the BEST-sounding instrument (its on par of comparable instruments; although since the sound depends on every single musician by itself, you can't compare instruments using different musicians, its pointless), it is THE icon that represent success in the classical music industry.
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post #54 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by prava View Post

blah blah blah

----

In any case, many of you seem to know nothing of the classical culture (and when talking about "high-end musicians" only classical musicians matters, since the other styles barely require any skill when you compare the two. There are exceptions, of course, but this is objectively true)

blah blah blah blah blah blah

This statement alone just nulled everything else you had to say.

Also it's not OBJECTIVELY true, as that is quite a biased statement which is the exact opposite of "objective"
     
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post #55 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by PappaSmurfsHarem View Post

This statement alone just nulled everything else you had to say.

Also it's not OBJECTIVELY true, as that is quite a biased statement which is the exact opposite of "objective"

Right, because other music styles require (in average) half as much skill as classical does. Sure. Of course there are songs that are guitar-centric and have amazing soloing parts, but you can't compare the styles.

PS: ever played any instrument?

PSS: and of course it is objective. Classical music sits at the top of the difficulty ledge. Not saying I like it more or I like it less, but go compare any other branch of the music, you just lol when you go an analyze it. Of course there are exceptions, there always are, but classical music requires a very high skill to be played properly. That is objective. Which is the reason most groups out there are average or terrible when live action, whereas any decent classical musician always shines, and doesn't need to record 347502020 times to get it right.
Edited by prava - 4/15/14 at 8:48am
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post #56 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by PappaSmurfsHarem View Post

This statement alone just nulled everything else you had to say.

Also it's not OBJECTIVELY true, as that is quite a biased statement which is the exact opposite of "objective"

There is a huge difference between musicians making musing, musicians re-interpreting music in a unique, personal way, and "academic" players, that might develop very high skills in re-producing the work of others, but remain barren as musicians - even if they are professionals.

I completely agree with the "recognition" portion of his post - i.e. it is a high honor to be so well known and respected as a violinist in order to be handed a Stradi - but I totally disagree with elitist statements of the type: "us classical musicians" vs. "you jumping monkeys making noises".

Just remember that there are probably a lot contemporary musicians that can reproduce Mozzart, Beethoven or any other master with a better piano or violin technique than any of those had.

Laymen know Stradivarius cause those sell for lots of monies. They wouldn't care for the sound differences, they would just node in awe of the price - if they say so, it must be so.
The blind test proves that Stradi - despite being great, even the "best" - are overhyped.


Just like the 250GTO is not the best car ever made, despite being the most expensive ever auctioned, Stradis have their real (great) value, and the superfluous "limited-supply-equipment-masturbation" value that appeals to the geeks of the genre, and simply shocks the rest (but the impression stays). By not means can an instrument worth tenths of millions of $ based on sound alone, and this blind test proves it (not that one couldn't imagine).
After a certain threshold, it is just a pee contest no different than "look at my Quad SLI/CF w/e" in essence.

Some have $3-4,000 to blow on GPUs, other have millions to blow on jacking up the price of a historic instrument or a car.
Good for them, I don't judge them, as long as you don't describe something vainglorious as "noble".
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post #57 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by prava View Post

Right, because other music styles require (in average) half as much skill as classical does. Sure. Of course there are songs that are guitar-centric and have amazing soloing parts, but you can't compare the styles.

PS: ever played any instrument?

I play a handful of instruments proficiently. And classical is no different than anything else. It all depends on the piece/song.

Classical is not inherently more difficult than anything else. It's all relative and subjective.

I'm sure you think Paganini is the greatest thing since sliced bread too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcfoo View Post

There is a huge difference between musicians making musing, musicians re-interpreting music in a unique, personal way, and "academic" players, that might develop very high skills in re-producing the work of others, but remain barren as musicians - even if they are professionals.

snip.

Right, I agree completely.

And I don't even disagree with the rest of his/her post. His/her opinion just ceased to be of interest when they stated something as close minded as he/she started off with.

To say one style of music is inherently more difficult than another is just ludicrous.
Edited by PappaSmurfsHarem - 4/15/14 at 8:57am
     
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post #58 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by PappaSmurfsHarem View Post

I play a handful of instruments proficiently. And classical is no different than anything else. It all depends on the piece/song.

Classical is not inherently more difficult than anything else. It's all relative and subjective.

I'm sure you think Paganini is the greatest thing since sliced bread too.
Right, I agree completely.

And I don't even disagree with the rest of his/her post. His/her opinion just ceased to be of interest when they stated something as close minded as he/she started off with.

To say one style of music is inherently more difficult than another is just ludicrous.

I totally agree even though so-called classical music (the term covers a very broad spectrum) is my favorite genre by far.
     
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post #59 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcfoo View Post

There is a huge difference between musicians making musing, musicians re-interpreting music in a unique, personal way, and "academic" players, that might develop very high skills in re-producing the work of others, but remain barren as musicians - even if they are professionals.

I completely agree with the "recognition" portion of his post - i.e. it is a high honor to be so well known and respected as a violinist in order to be handed a Stradi - but I totally disagree with elitist statements of the type: "us classical musicians" vs. "you jumping monkeys making noises".

Just remember that there are probably a lot contemporary musicians that can reproduce Mozzart, Beethoven or any other master with a better piano or violin technique than any of those had.

Laymen know Stradivarius cause those sell for lots of monies. They wouldn't care for the sound differences, they would just node in awe of the price - if they say so, it must be so.
The blind test proves that Stradi - despite being great, even the "best" - are overhyped.

There is no elitism, not at all. Just as there is no nerdism between musicians.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PappaSmurfsHarem View Post

I play a handful of instruments proficiently. And classical is no different than anything else. It all depends on the piece/song.

Classical is not inherently more difficult than anything else. It's all relative and subjective.

It is more difficult. On average? Miles, and miles ahead.
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post #60 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by PappaSmurfsHarem View Post


To say one style of music is inherently more difficult than another is just ludicrous.

Please explain how the fact that classical music is more technically demanding is a ludicrous statement. Now tell me that rock, pop or jazz are super technically demanding styles, lol.
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Overclock.net › Forums › Industry News › Technology and Science News › [New Scientist]Pro violinists fail to spot Stradivarius in blind test