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Still no mATX support for AM3+? - Page 11

post #101 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Pook View Post

the best mobo I had was a socket 939 Biostar TForce 6100 mATX back in the day biggrin.gif half the price of a DFI Lan Party at the time, OCed just as well, had intergrated video, did 320+ FSB, and didn't throttle a bit with an OCed FX-60 Toledo and that CPU was 110w TDP.

I'm sure at this point in time (at least 8 years since that TForce 6100 was released) we can at least get a mini-itx AM3+ mobo that supports the FX series w/o OCing. I think they purposely are making mATX AM3+ scarce for the benefit of FM2/FM2+ sales.

I had an Asrock 6100 too at the time, as well as the legendary Dual SATA2. The 6100 was the most stable motherboard i 've ever had. I was actually so bored that i was wishing something would happen to it. It still runs to this day to a friend of mine that i gave it.

I agree with the purpose, but it's not that they make them scarse. They just make them unappetizing to anyone who buys new. Makes sense only if 1) you don't know anytning about chipsets, 2) if you already have a spare FX chip and want to throw it to a cheap board for an auxiliary rig. If you want to buy new "entry level" mobo+CPU, the APU becomes a no brainer. And the irony is that basically, the fabled 980g and 950 chipsets, are in essense the same old 780g/710 combo, but more refined in time.
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post #102 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by puts View Post

Very good looking matx board thumb.gif
i like new gigabyte desings these black and dark gray colored. those light blue gigabyte boards was so ugly.

It's also a very crap board. They have issues with FX-8 chips at stock if you don't undervolt. Putting any 125w FX-8 CPU in it is suicide. I can't begin to tell you the number of people who got that board and joined the 8300 club only to learn that it sucked hard.

Agreed on the looks though. Gigabyte's Intel boards have nothing on their AMD boards in terms of looks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PunkX 1 View Post

For reference, Jason's 6300 was at 5Ghz for almost a year on his "dinky" mATX. He's replaced that with an 8370, on the same board.

Lol, my paltry 3+1 phase is alive and well with an 8370E. The same board housed a Phenom II X4 at 4Ghz for 3 years (with a VRM fan, of course).

I don't recommend this for other users, though.

You misunderstood the dinky part. Read again. The fact that you needed a fan for just a Deneb at 4 proves my point as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spawne32 View Post

lol You remind me of the nay sayers wayyyy back when mATX and ITX were first introduced and they were saying oh this will never catch on, you can't fit anything good on a board that small.

A88X is fine on mITX/mATX. Z97 is fine on mITX/mATX. X99 just barely managed to fit on mATX, it cost a fortune, and will never fit on mITX. 990FX does not fit on mATX.

If you really really want mATX, then fo FM2+ or Z97. Problem solved.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Pook View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spawne32 View Post

lol You remind me of the nay sayers wayyyy back when mATX and ITX were first introduced and they were saying oh this will never catch on, you can't fit anything good on a board that small.

the best mobo I had was a socket 939 Biostar TForce 6100 mATX back in the day biggrin.gif half the price of a DFI Lan Party at the time, OCed just as well, had intergrated video, did 320+ FSB, and didn't throttle a bit with an OCed FX-60 Toledo and that CPU was 110w TDP.

I'm sure at this point in time (at least 8 years since that TForce 6100 was released) we can at least get a mini-itx AM3+ mobo that supports the FX series w/o OCing. I think they purposely are making mATX AM3+ scarce for the benefit of FM2/FM2+ sales.



Lets go with the 970 chipset since you can only use 16 PCI-e lanes anyway. Fit everything on the board. Get back to me when you do, and send a resume to ASUS and Gigabyte while you're at it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spawne32 View Post

So your reasoning for saying that its not possible to put 9 chips on mATX is because they wouldn't be able to fit the PCI slots because of a southbridge?

No. Get back to me when you understand motherboard layout, because that is not what I said.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Undervolter View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post

Oh I would love a source.

If you expect me to start digging some years ago and find AMD saying "we 're banning them", i don't think i will find such statement.

-snip-

Then don't make such statements. Provide information on your theory the first time. As a side note, you talked only about chipsets, not motherboard sizes, which...

A88X is Z97. 990FX is X99.

There is no reason for 980G to exist. APUs exist for integrated graphics. AM3+ is the enthusiast platform, just like X99. You provide your own GPU, even if it's a half-height peice of crap.

So in that aspect you are correct. 980G doesn't exist.

However none of that has to do with mATX, so whatever.
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post #103 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post


Then don't make such statements. Provide information on your theory the first time. As a side note, you talked only about chipsets, not motherboard sizes, which...

A88X is Z97. 990FX is X99.

There is no reason for 980G to exist. APUs exist for integrated graphics. AM3+ is the enthusiast platform, just like X99. You provide your own GPU, even if it's a half-height peice of crap.

So in that aspect you are correct. 980G doesn't exist.

However none of that has to do with mATX, so whatever.

Dear sir, i will say what i please , as i please. You are free to "correct" me as you see fit. What you say doesn't seem much different from what i said, but you just don't like to blame AMD for having a worse chipset around... The 980G existed apparently in AMD's labs and it was basically the 880G. For mysterious reasons, we ended up with a chipset launched prior to 785G and 880G. If you don't find that odd, well, i think you should, because i agree with you, they 've done it for the APUs. We just disagree apparenly on the motives... I am more evil thinking person.

What do you want me to say about motherboard sizes? That the 880g/850 is basically the same as 980g/950 and the same as 780g? If AMD had such announcement in their site, you think it wouldn't fit in mATX? I don't understand....

EDIT: APUs exist for integrated graphics. What do mATX exist for? I don't remember many mATX without integrated graphics. AM3+ is enthusiast platform, but their mATX can't even properly accelerate H264 (with H265 around the door) , when an onboard from 2008 can and are stuck with SATAII , when the 850 southbridge can give SATAIII... That's why i am evil thinking.
Edited by Undervolter - 10/18/14 at 1:51pm
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post #104 of 163
rolleyes.gif

KyadCK, you're saying it's impossible to put AM3+ on Mini-ITX because it wasn't already done? Good talk.



If they can do an 880G chipset with up to 95w CPUs, I'm sure three years later they can figure out how to support 125w. Everyone who buys mini-itx tends to go the APU route anyway so it's not like manufacturers are rushing to make it. Doesn't mean it's impossible.
Edited by The Pook - 10/18/14 at 12:49pm
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post #105 of 163
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Pook View Post

rolleyes.gif

KyadCK, you're saying it's impossible to put AM3+ on Mini-ITX because it wasn't already done? Good talk.



If they can do an 880G chipset with up to 95w CPUs, I'm sure three years later they can figure out how to support 125w. Everyone who buys mini-itx tends to go the APU route anyway so it's not like manufacturers are rushing to make it. Doesn't mean it's impossible.

Maybe he will get back to us when he understands motherboard layout. rolleyes.gif In fact im inclined to agree with him, I dont understand motherboard layout apparently, because I know more then enough to know that its not impossible to put a 9 series chipset on a mATX/ITX design board, part of the reason why I'm more inclined to agree with undervolter that there is some more sinister motive involved here.
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post #106 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spawne32 View Post

there is some more sinister motive involved here.

In my opinion, there is a motive, but not so sinister. The backbone of a market economy, is supply and demand, where the demand dictates the supply. It's the customer that dictates the needs, not the other way around. This under "normal" circumstances.

Long story short. To quote AMD's announcement:
Quote:
The AMD 980G Chipset with ATI Radeon™ HD 4250 Graphics enables an exceptionally power-efficient platform at an incredible value.

AMD thinks again: "Wait a minute, this may actually BE an incredible value! We must stop it. Heck, we must stop giving even 880/850 and 785. Let's throw them the 760g/710 as a curve ball and see who will be the morons that will prefer that to our APU".

Because, AMD would LIKE to abolish completely mATX in the AM3+ segment to boost APUs. Alas, this damned market economy, there was demand for AM3+ mATX. Mobo manufacturers knocking on the door. So AMD, trashes the 980g/950, cuts supplies for 880/850, 785 and gives the ultimate blast from the past. The HD3000/710. In an era, that H264 is the standard of digital TV signale, where youtube has HD videos and where every little mobile device supports acceleration for H264, you give a chipset that can't even accelerate H264. To me this screams "You want mATX? Fine, suckers. I will sabotage you as good as i can, here you go, take this trash, let's see how much you sell with it".

Because, outside OC.net, in the real world, where most people don't play games nor overclock, there would be quite a lot actually to be perfectly happy to buy say an AM3+ with FX4300/FX6300 and even 880G/850. For an office or an HTPC, it's not like you need some powerful GPU to play games in such cases. They are the same people who despite all odds, buy AM3+ mATX, despite the curve ball thrown at them.

When there is demand, but you don't want to supply, in order to manipulate demand, you sabotage one product line, in order to redirect it to another. AMD couldn't kill the mATX form factor because the pressure from manufacturers must have been too high. So instead, killed the 980G chipset and made sure that the only available chipset to the manufacturers would be a regression to 2007 in terms of video performance and a pre-850 in terms of SATA support. I don't think there is ANY precedence in neither AMD nor Intel history, where a platform suffers regression of this nature. Worst case scenario, there would be no improvement. But regression?

It's a bit the same with low end cards. There are still loads of HD5450 on sale here. These are "ancient" cards. But there is still demand, so there is supply years later. Because a 20W card perfectly capable of playing Blue Ray, may be just fine for non gamers and even preferable to a more powerful but hotter new card. Same story why at the end, an R5 230 was produced (which is same specs as 6450). APUs steamroll that card. It's not high performance, so why should AMD care for it in AM3+? Intel's integrated is better too. But there is demand, so they supply.

When there is demand but not supply, in a capitalistic economy, there is something fishy going on, on the supplier's side.

On the mobo manufacturer's side, the is actually a desperation in making unbelievably improbable offerings in mATX. I mean, look at this, it is supposed to run even FX8370E:

http://www.asrock.com/mb/AMD/960GM-VGS3%20FX/

Would you bet any money on that? I wouldn't. Asrock and MSI are full of such "wild claims" boards. This proves that there is demand and they try to kill competition by shoving any CPU they can find in the CPU compatibility list. Anything to sell. MSI has even a mATX with ASMedia controller that gives 2 SATAIII ports, so it's not like the mobo manufacturers aren't aware of the shortcomings and i doubt they prefer paying ASmedia for 2 ports, when the 850 can give them all the SATAIII ports they want.

Theory? Yes. Companies aren't so fools to admit such things.
Edited by Undervolter - 10/19/14 at 2:12am
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post #107 of 163
Thread Starter 
That to me is sinister business methods, when you try to kill an entire product segment to push customers towards another product for the sake of profit.
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post #108 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Undervolter View Post

Asrock and MSI are full of such "wild claims" boards. This proves that there is demand and they try to kill competition by shoving any CPU they can find in the CPU compatibility list. Anything to sell. MSI has even a mATX with ASMedia controller that gives 2 SATAIII ports, so it's not like the mobo manufacturers aren't aware of the shortcomings and i doubt they prefer paying ASmedia for 2 ports, when the 850 can give them all the SATAIII ports they want.
Companies like AsRock and MSI have always had products like that, with unrealistic specs for what they claim to offer, long before AM3+ existed. Look at that board you linked to--they're claiming octocore FX support on a crappy 3-phase design, with a software overclock feature enabled. And of course, people who don't know any better will try it.

The fact that AMD knows that stuff like this exists, and they're really powerless to stop it, is a good reason for them to prevent a proliferation of mATX products that take FX processors. How often, even on OCN where people should know better, do you see posts from people blaming AMD when they build a rig with an inadequate motherboard and then watch it blow up like a Roman candle? That's damaging to AMD's reputation, and if there were mATX platforms for FX with better features available, but the same inadequate power phases, what's going to happen then? Even more hardware failures that aren't really AMD's fault, but that AMD will get blamed for all the same. The last I checked, there was only one mATX motherboard with AM3+ support that even had as much as a 4+1 power phase configuration.

If AMD were in a position to dictate to motherboard manufacturers that they had to construct motherboards to certain specifications, and withhold chipsets if they don't, then you might have seen them let the 980G go out to more than a few OEM's. But they can't. If they were to yank their chipsets from MSI, for example, MSI could just counter by refusing to make any more AMD video cards either, and make more Nvidia cards instead. Intel has that kind of leverage, which is why you don't see a plethora of terrible Intel motherboards. Intel could stop that just by denying that maker any more Intel chipsets until they improved the quality of their products.

AMD doesn't need any more bad publicity, and trust me, they would have gotten it if 980G motherboards with 3-phase power had shown up on the market in quantity, and people had overclocked FX-8350's on them and watched them blow up. And that's exactly what would have happened if they had. It was better for AMD to force companies like AsRock and MSI to make lousy mATX boards based on ancient chipsets that very few people would want to buy. Anyone who wanted an FX badly enough would switch to full ATX, or if they had to have mATX, they would buy an APU, which generally runs fine even on motherboards that suck.
     
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post #109 of 163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsc1973 View Post


AMD doesn't need any more bad publicity, and trust me, they would have gotten it if 980G motherboards with 3-phase power had shown up on the market in quantity, and people had overclocked FX-8350's on them and watched them blow up. And that's exactly what would have happened if they had. It was better for AMD to force companies like AsRock and MSI to make lousy mATX boards based on ancient chipsets that very few people would want to buy. Anyone who wanted an FX badly enough would switch to full ATX, or if they had to have mATX, they would buy an APU, which generally runs fine even on motherboards that suck.


I think that you are vastly overestimating the impact that the enthusiast market has on any one particular companies reputation. AMD is not suffering from bad publicity from overclockers, at all. In no way shape or form. What AMD is suffering from is bad publicity amongst the larger market segments that make up most of their revenue, which is why they spent so much effort in the past few years pushing the APU. More and more manufacturers are refusing to put AMD products in their system's (dell, hp, etc) with the exception of the extreme extreme low end budget model's because AMD's process technology is that far behind. It would be like Dell manufacturing business class laptops using VIA cpu's at this point. OEM's like apple and dell market their laptops and pc's on two main things, performance and battery life (laptops and notebooks), which means they aren't going to be buying up AMD cpu's that consume virtually double the power that intel's mobile haswell processors do and offer half the performance.

I can tell you right now, that a few burned out board's from independent motherboard manufacturers is not something AMD even remotely considers into their sales equation, and it is my understanding that AMD would have to release a reference board to motherboard manufacturer's first with the basic requirements of the chipset before the boards would even go into mass production through independent brands. You also aren't going to find board's from name brand manufacturers like Asus that are going to blow up because they are underpowered.
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post #110 of 163
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Originally Posted by jsc1973 View Post

Companies like AsRock and MSI have always had products like that, with unrealistic specs for what they claim to offer, long before AM3+ existed. Look at that board you linked to--they're claiming octocore FX support on a crappy 3-phase design, with a software overclock feature enabled. And of course, people who don't know any better will try it.

The fact that AMD knows that stuff like this exists, and they're really powerless to stop it, is a good reason for them to prevent a proliferation of mATX products that take FX processors. How often, even on OCN where people should know better, do you see posts from people blaming AMD when they build a rig with an inadequate motherboard and then watch it blow up like a Roman candle? That's damaging to AMD's reputation, and if there were mATX platforms for FX with better features available, but the same inadequate power phases, what's going to happen then? Even more hardware failures that aren't really AMD's fault, but that AMD will get blamed for all the same. The last I checked, there was only one mATX motherboard with AM3+ support that even had as much as a 4+1 power phase configuration.
If AMD were in a position to dictate to motherboard manufacturers that they had to construct motherboards to certain specifications, and withhold chipsets if they don't, then you might have seen them let the 980G go out to more than a few OEM's. But they can't. If they were to yank their chipsets from MSI, for example, MSI could just counter by refusing to make any more AMD video cards either, and make more Nvidia cards instead. Intel has that kind of leverage, which is why you don't see a plethora of terrible Intel motherboards. Intel could stop that just by denying that maker any more Intel chipsets until they improved the quality of their products.

AMD doesn't need any more bad publicity, and trust me, they would have gotten it if 980G motherboards with 3-phase power had shown up on the market in quantity, and people had overclocked FX-8350's on them and watched them blow up. And that's exactly what would have happened if they had. It was better for AMD to force companies like AsRock and MSI to make lousy mATX boards based on ancient chipsets that very few people would want to buy. Anyone who wanted an FX badly enough would switch to full ATX, or if they had to have mATX, they would buy an APU, which generally runs fine even on motherboards that suck.

JSC, my view in "brief" in all this, since i already wrote too much is:

1) mATX will be out there, with any phase a manufacturer decides to. If a motherboard manufacturer wants to make a crap board, he will make it with either 760g or 785g or 880g or 980g. AMD can only determine which of all these will be used. Manufacturers even do crap boards for APUs, so this has no end. Manufacturers make crappy 970 boards too, so again, what are we going to do? Abolish 970?

2) If someone is so naive as to blame AMD for the 3 phase board Asrock gave him, well, i think AMD has bigger headaches than that fraction of customers. At the end, ASrock and MSI don't mind doing RMAs selling these and don't mind their own reputation, since their name brand is written all over the board, you expect AMD do be concerned?

3) Nobody even asked AMD to do some new chipset. The 980 is basically the 880. The 785 and 880 were launched AFTER 760g, yet AMD stopped supply for anything other than 760. Why? Aren't they concerned about their reputation for building mATX with 760g? Have you ever seen a platform go BACK in specs either in Intel or in AMD? 880g is 2010 chipset, 760g is 2009 and with capabilities beaten by 785g and 790g.

4) You think that now with the 760g/710 AMD has "better pubblicity" than if they were 880g/850? Why? The customer is more impressed by the crappier performance?

5) I think you overrate the customer's reactions. Besides the customer when buys a motherboard will more likely blame the motherboard manufacturer for poor performance. On the other hand the customer who wants such solution but sees crappy chipsets, will blame AMD.

6) A customer who buys motherboard on its own, is usually informed enough to understand the difference between motherboard manufacturer and chipset manufacturer.

7) A user usually first picks CPU and then tries to find motherboard for that CPU. Picking AM3+ CPU and finding crap mATX, is more damaging to AMD's reputation than having ASrock give crap motherboard with better chipset. "Gee, AMD on this board, doesn't even have SATAIII, Intel is full of them".

8) I would agree with you if AMD simply told the mobo manufacturers: "Gentlemen, no chipsets for me for MATX, sorry i am concerned for my reputation". In this way AMD EFFECTIVELY would wipe out mATX boards in very short time. BUT, apparently, didn't want to alienate the manufacturers with a "no".

9) Past crap mATX never bothered AMD with older chipsets. Crap ASrock and MSI FM1/FM2/FM2+ motherboards (that occasionally go on fire), aren't bad for AMD's reputation.

10) The fact that all manufacturers have multiple mATX models out, means, there is STILL demand, despite the 760g chipset.
Edited by Undervolter - 10/19/14 at 1:03pm
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