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[CVG]Video: Watch Dogs trailer shows improved PC visuals - Page 16

post #151 of 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by MerkageTurk View Post

Personally, GTAV is where my money will be at. However, if it was similar to the e3 demo than maybe I will consider purchasing it but not on this occasion as it is not justified. Look at them graphics, I mean crysis 1 had moving animals, bushes, trees, sand, water, etc and that was in 2007?

Wait what? GTAV had crappy graphics and I doubt there will be a HUGE improvement for PC yet you're complaining about watchdogs?
post #152 of 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by doomlord52 View Post

..... What happened to "Can we please stop arguing"? Oh well, guess I might as well come back for round 1.x.... rolleyes.gif
Oh wow. So apparently you can't appreciate both at the same time. Amazing. I must be an entirely 2d person. Awesome. I guess I better uninstall HALF my game library; I mean look at the horrible graphics in these games:
Far Cry 1, Half Life (1, 2, etc.), FEAR, Titan Quest, KOTOR1&2, Fall Out 1, Dead Space 1 (possibly 2 and 3 as well!), Just Cause 1, Dark Siders, CoH1, DoW:40k, AI War (LOOk AT IT!), RIse of Nations, Star Craft 1, Age of Empires 1 & 2, Age of Mythology, Empire Earth, Total Annihilation, FTL, Dungeon Keeper 1, Counter Strike: Sources, DoD:S, CoD4, Star Wars: Battlefront 1&2, Unreal Tournament 2004, Need for Speed: Underground, Silent Hunter 3, Duke Nukem 3D, and Hotline Miami.

No, I must hate all those games; I mean, they look awful compared to The Witcher 3 and Crysis 3. Wait, what? I don't hate those games? In fact, some of them are my favorite games? But how is this possible? I must definitely be in your "group 2", since I ripped on TLOU and Watch Dog's graphics. Well, I guess not. Turns out I like gameplay; a lot. However, years of experience (both paid and hobby) have left me with enough experience and knowledge about game development to know that pretty much any game out there that is "console first" in terms of graphics is just holding out on the user base.

What a cheap way to begin an argument. By the way, being ironic won't make you look smarter thumb.gif.
Quote:
Originally Posted by doomlord52 View Post

A game artist wants his/her art to look at the best. A GOOD artist never stops and says "meh, good enough". They'll do the absolute best they can; tons of lights, shadows, crisp textures, etc. The problem is, the tech team steps in and says "no, you can't have that". Either the stupid forward rendering engine (TLOU) can't handle more than 3 shadow-casting light sources, or the GPU can't handle enough polygons, or the CPU can't crunch that much physics. Basically, the art team wants fancy graphics, and the tech team can't make it possible because they're so focused on making an SKU that works on console. They could easily just use the super HD textures on PC, or maybe enable some physics that they already developed (WD's coat physics). But instead, marketing or whatever, realizes that a gap as astronomically huge as the gap between console and PC would probably hurt sales; and as such, the PC version gets nerfed.

"... the stupid forward rendering engine (TLOU) ..." Wow, the level of fanaticism towards the pc here is very worrying. You cannot insult (stupid forward rendering engine) an engine that's running under what was a 5 years old console back when TLOU came out when it's actually maxing out the hardware of the PS3. That has never happened with a PC only game, never ever. And great graphics won't make a good game, it will make it better. But here some people will not acquire the game for the graphics, when they've never played the game to see how it actually plays and is. Please, record this into your head: Graphics won't make a game good, it will make it better. How better? Well that depends on each player's opinion. You can start the "chat up", ssaying there's a huge gap between PC's and consoles and all that stuff PC gamers always say (because they think to be superior). And let me state you something pretty funny: This gap you mentioned only exists on the numbers, on the specs of PC hardware vs console hardware. Because in practise, this giagantic gap is just not there. Justify it with w/e you wish, I don't really care; console people in general don't really care. And you know why? We like playing games, not watching graphics. Now tell me:

CREATOR: gd-jpeg v1.0 (using IJG JPEG v62), quality = 85

CREATOR: gd-jpeg v1.0 (using IJG JPEG v62), quality = 85

CREATOR: gd-jpeg v1.0 (using IJG JPEG v62), quality = 85

Now tell me, is there too much of a difference? Seriously, when you're not inspecting textures really close to them (you know, you don't play games getting extremely close to walls/rocks/floor etc to see the textures, or throw grenades in purpose to see the explosions and smoke, fire and effects, you just play the game) can you really tell a big difference? And don't tell me those are just compressed pictureswhich is why you can't notice the difference, because that's basically affecting both games.
Quote:
Originally Posted by doomlord52 View Post

The other thing is, that even if you're enjoying the game, anyone paying attention can notice bad graphics. I, personally, have a pretty good eye for detail. I'll usually catch things in a second of video that other people won't really notice in a still; poorly clipping shadows, blurry textures, etc. It comes with experience. When I make a thing, I'll test it multiple times. After a while, you start noticing tiny things: "Is that lamp I made good enough?". No one else is going to pay attention to the lamp, but as the artist; you will. You then start applying your own standards to other's works (as anyone should), and you start noticing the absolute trash people try to push off as "good".
Some of us don't care. I want amazing graphics, and fluid FPS in some great games.

Ok, that's you and I respect that. We have a different vision of what a game is. You perceive games as a form of art, and I perceive them as a form of entertainment. And personally, I don't need real life graphics to enjoy a game. And maybe that's why most devs don't push PC hardware that much. You can have a clinical eye for graphics and I congratulate you for that. It's just I see that as a problem, cause you will never enjoy a game if it doesn't look how you want it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by doomlord52 View Post

Did I pay way more than I would have for a console? Well. Maybe. I don't have a TV - just a desktop (Netflix > TV, anyway). As a result, I don't pay for a TV sub or a monthly PS/X0 sub. A good TV these days (40"+ or something) probably runs around $1200-1500. So, let's say that the TV cancels out my screens, headset, keyboard and mouse (PC350, DK3009, Razer Deathadder). Well, my desktop was slightly under $2000 new, and I added a few bits here and there afterwards (Extra HDD's, etc.). So yea, I probably paid $1500 more for my tower than I would have for a console.

Really? 40' TV's $1200? Wow, where do you live? I live in Argentina (third world country where you get the stuff more expensive) and you have 40' TV's rounding the $600 (and I'm talking about a good TV).
Quote:
Originally Posted by doomlord52 View Post

The thing is, it's not. Artistically, WatchDogs is going for a 'realistic' style; they're trying to make their game look as close to real as possible. As such, you can easily compare it to other games trying to do the same thing... and a lot games that have been out for a while now look better: Crysis 3, Metro: LL, even Crysis 2 looks better. ARMA 3 has better lighting, that's for sure. It looks worse than GTA4 with mods - that's the sad part; a professional team working for YEARS couldn't beat a few guys doing some work as a hobby and releasing their work for free.

The thing is, it is. Let's start with something really basic: You haven't even played WatchDogs to tell if it looks better or worse than other games so even when you have a clinic eye and super powers, you are not in the conditions to compare the graphics. But if we were about to judge the graphics for the video, I'd say it looks amazing. Don't know if better than Crysis 3, Metro LL or the dung that Crysis 2 was (graphics wise of course). All I know is, it looks great. You are really angry because they supposedly downgraded it (I just don't see that much of a downgrade on this latest trailer, but w/e I believe you) and since you just can't live with it or get over it, you hate on the graphics. For you it's like this: "If it doesn't look like it did back at the E3, then it looks bad". Or at least it seems like that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by doomlord52 View Post

As for what I can do about it? Well, the E3 2012 demo was 'real time'; we know that. It wasn't some off-site, pre-rendered thing made in 3DS. It was an interactive thing running in a game engine. So, I assume those shaders, textures, etc. and stuff still exist, so basically, until they release those assets (or make better ones), I'll just not buy the game. I'm tired of being lied to because the "next gen" consoles are so horrible; they show us one thing (that looks amazing), and then show us something else, because it wasn't going to be able to run on the target platform. If your game is going to look average, just show that. Don't set the bar high, then go far under it.

For you consoles are horrible. It's your opinion and I respect it.
post #153 of 200
Well I wouldn't be complaining. Now if this was the snow drop engine I'd be disappointed
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post #154 of 200
Is this really happening on OCN? Are you guys really having a Console vs PC war argument? Unless consoles can run 11 million pixels, they shouldn't even be brought up as a comparison to a gaming PC........... Ever tongue.gif

Gaming wise, there is SO MUCH you can do that you can't do on a PS4/X-bone. 3D vision gaming, Eyefinity/Surround gaming (also in 3D), 21:9 widescreen gaming, 4K resolution gaming, countless and countless of mods, customization and enhancements (GTA IV and Skyrim being an example). It's just completely stupid to even compare them lol

This is coming from someone that has a PlayStation 4, an Xbox 360, and a gaming PC of course. We know you love your consoles, and i love mine too, just don't ever compare them to PC's thumb.gif


ON TOPIC.

I can't wait to play this game, and i think it would be something i can spend my valuable time on biggrin.gif
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post #155 of 200

Guys this topic is about Watch Dogs and its merits on PC. This is not a PC vs Console discussion. Any more of this and the thread will be locked.

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post #156 of 200
Finally, should clean them out completely so it doesn't start again. Boring as hell.
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post #157 of 200
Most of my reply (Click to show)
Quote:
Originally Posted by DatPhoria View Post

What a cheap way to begin an argument. By the way, being ironic won't make you look smarter thumb.gif.
Meh, I stopped trying when you said "I don't see concept art as concept art", after arguing for several posts that concept art (from a concept art article) was somehow in-game footage.
Quote:
"... the stupid forward rendering engine (TLOU) ..." Wow, the level of fanaticism towards the pc here is very worrying.
After working with a forward rendering engine for the last 1.5 years, when I use a deferred engine for my own hobby work, yea, forward rendering is stupid. Why on earth would you want to pass the geom multiple times through the renderer to do shadows, when you can just do it all at once. Seriously: Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Forward:

Deffered:
Not talking from fanboyism; talking from experience. Since deffered became mainstream, using forward has become really, really stupid. You just can't do 90% of the stuff you can with deffered (real particle lighting, having literally 200+ shadow-casting lights, etc.).

Quote:
You cannot insult (stupid forward rendering engine) an engine that's running under what was a 5 years old console back when TLOU came out when it's actually maxing out the hardware of the PS3. That has never happened with a PC only game, never ever.
What does this even mean? Yea; a forward renderer made sense on a PS3; the thing is old and weak. However, getting deffered working on an x86 platform isn't really that hard. Unity 3D, possibly the worst engine I've ever used, supports Forward and Deffered; all you have to do is change one thing in the render options. All I'm asking is for them to put a bit of effort into it. Chances are their "next gen" engine is really just an evolution of what they used on PS3, so forward porting TLOU-PS3 to a PS4 engine shouldn't be too hard to do. I mean, going from CE2 to CE3 is/was fairly easy.

Quote:
And great graphics won't make a good game, it will make it better. But here some people will not acquire the game for the graphics, when they've never played the game to see how it actually plays and is. Please, record this into your head: Graphics won't make a game good, it will make it better. How better? Well that depends on each player's opinion. You can start the "chat up", ssaying there's a huge gap between PC's and consoles and all that stuff PC gamers always say (because they think to be superior). And let me state you something pretty funny: This gap you mentioned only exists on the numbers, on the specs of PC hardware vs console hardware. Because in practise, this giagantic gap is just not there. Justify it with w/e you wish, I don't really care; console people in general don't really care. And you know why?

People who won't buy a game based solely around graphics are missing out; yea. People who won't buy a game because the graphics AREN'T what was shown earlier, solely because consoles can't reach the goals originally set out, are sending a message.
Quote:
We like playing games, not watching graphics. Now tell me:

*Images*

Now tell me, is there too much of a difference? Seriously, when you're not inspecting textures really close to them (you know, you don't play games getting extremely close to walls/rocks/floor etc to see the textures, or throw grenades in purpose to see the explosions and smoke, fire and effects, you just play the game) can you really tell a big difference? And don't tell me those are just compressed pictureswhich is why you can't notice the difference, because that's basically affecting both games.

Well, even on my horrible 1366p screen (Ultrabook), I have a hard time telling because those pictures are literally 650p. They're both 1080p games; why not post 1080p pictures? I would, but my internet is being horrifically slow for some reason. I'll try again later; but from what I've seen from other sources, KZ:SF looks nothing close to C3.
Quote:
The thing is, it is. Let's start with something really basic: You haven't even played WatchDogs to tell if it looks better or worse than other games so even when you have a clinic eye and super powers, you are not in the conditions to compare the graphics. But if we were about to judge the graphics for the video, I'd say it looks amazing. Don't know if better than Crysis 3, Metro LL or the dung that Crysis 2 was (graphics wise of course). All I know is, it looks great. You are really angry because they supposedly downgraded it (I just don't see that much of a downgrade on this latest trailer, but w/e I believe you) and since you just can't live with it or get over it, you hate on the graphics. For you it's like this: "If it doesn't look like it did back at the E3, then it looks bad". Or at least it seems like that.
For you consoles are horrible. It's your opinion and I respect it.

Even through junk youtube compression, you can tell when a model has sharp edges (i.e. low polycount), when reflections aren't correct (environmental probes), or even when textures are incredibly flat. Yes, you won't be able to see exactly every detail (amount of aliasing is often hard to tell), but it's REALLY easy to tell when the draw distance is bad; some goes for things like physics accuracy. I just don't understand people who use "youtube compression" as an excuse; it's really not all that bad. It's not 100% lossless, but it's not the blocky mess people make it out to be.

As for the graphics downgrade, I think you need to see some references:

That's what we were shown at E3 2012; it looked amazing. Nothing we've been shown since has held a candle to that; the shadows aren't as good, the reflections aren't nearly as good, things in general aren't as crisp. The 2012 footage was amazing in basically every way. Now it looks like GTA 4 or 5 with some mods.

And yes, consoles are horrible. The launch specs were bad, and they're just going to get worse. Bad hardware means no innovation. Hopefully the hardware will get so out dated that devs will switch back to a PC focus.
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post #158 of 200
Can I ask something? Why does such a large company put a guy who can't properly speak English make the trailer voiceover? Just why?
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post #159 of 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by doomlord52 View Post

And yes, consoles are horrible. The launch specs were bad, and they're just going to get worse. Bad hardware means no innovation. Hopefully the hardware will get so out dated that devs will switch back to a PC focus.

In all honesty I was going to leave the discussion there, but after reading that I couldn't help but to laugh a bit; Devs, for the most part, have never focused (or prioritized) PC on their game releases (even when they'd have always said on the interviews they opposite). In general, those are all bad ports. So they won't have to "switch back" to some point they've never been at.

That's it for me. Be my guest to reply and refute every and each of these words, I won't reply. Have fun.
post #160 of 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by doomlord52 View Post

Most of my reply (Click to show)
Meh, I stopped trying when you said "I don't see concept art as concept art", after arguing for several posts that concept art (from a concept art article) was somehow in-game footage.
After working with a forward rendering engine for the last 1.5 years, when I use a deferred engine for my own hobby work, yea, forward rendering is stupid. Why on earth would you want to pass the geom multiple times through the renderer to do shadows, when you can just do it all at once. Seriously: Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Forward:

Deffered:
Not talking from fanboyism; talking from experience. Since deffered became mainstream, using forward has become really, really stupid. You just can't do 90% of the stuff you can with deffered (real particle lighting, having literally 200+ shadow-casting lights, etc.).
What does this even mean? Yea; a forward renderer made sense on a PS3; the thing is old and weak. However, getting deffered working on an x86 platform isn't really that hard. Unity 3D, possibly the worst engine I've ever used, supports Forward and Deffered; all you have to do is change one thing in the render options. All I'm asking is for them to put a bit of effort into it. Chances are their "next gen" engine is really just an evolution of what they used on PS3, so forward porting TLOU-PS3 to a PS4 engine shouldn't be too hard to do. I mean, going from CE2 to CE3 is/was fairly easy.
People who won't buy a game based solely around graphics are missing out; yea. People who won't buy a game because the graphics AREN'T what was shown earlier, solely because consoles can't reach the goals originally set out, are sending a message.
Well, even on my horrible 1366p screen (Ultrabook), I have a hard time telling because those pictures are literally 650p. They're both 1080p games; why not post 1080p pictures? I would, but my internet is being horrifically slow for some reason. I'll try again later; but from what I've seen from other sources, KZ:SF looks nothing close to C3.
Even through junk youtube compression, you can tell when a model has sharp edges (i.e. low polycount), when reflections aren't correct (environmental probes), or even when textures are incredibly flat. Yes, you won't be able to see exactly every detail (amount of aliasing is often hard to tell), but it's REALLY easy to tell when the draw distance is bad; some goes for things like physics accuracy. I just don't understand people who use "youtube compression" as an excuse; it's really not all that bad. It's not 100% lossless, but it's not the blocky mess people make it out to be.

As for the graphics downgrade, I think you need to see some references:

That's what we were shown at E3 2012; it looked amazing. Nothing we've been shown since has held a candle to that; the shadows aren't as good, the reflections aren't nearly as good, things in general aren't as crisp. The 2012 footage was amazing in basically every way. Now it looks like GTA 4 or 5 with some mods.

And yes, consoles are horrible. The launch specs were bad, and they're just going to get worse. Bad hardware means no innovation. Hopefully the hardware will get so out dated that devs will switch back to a PC focus.

That's pre-rendered, no? I don't think common hardware could render this real time.

The 2012 demo looks reeeally different. Google it and you'll see.
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