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post #11 of 30
Deathadder 2013
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post #12 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by twisted5446 View Post

Deathadder 2013
DA is not always the best, even good choice, in this case I agree with #2, vote for Naos 7000
post #13 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by metal571 View Post

The only thing about the Naos is that it can be tough to lift. That may not be an issue for you though if you don't use a very low sensitivity like me. I own the Avior, best optical sensor on the market right now except for the Logitech g502. That is a little out of your price range though, the Naos might be as well, I just considered...anyway they are both well worth the cash though.

Why would you say the 502 is the best sensor?
    
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post #14 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craftyman View Post

Why would you say the 502 is the best sensor?

Higher native CPI, much higher maximum perfect control speed, also super low liftoff distance approaching laser-like lowness. It is distinctly and objectively better.
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post #15 of 30
G502 sensor also supposedly has zero smoothing. I've never felt it in my Mionix 7k mice but reading between the lines of what Logitech has said I assume some level of smoothing does exist on the 3310.
post #16 of 30
my limited understanding is that all mice have prediction and smoothing. some mice have more then others, and its typically excessive prediction and smoothing that is undesirable. Smoothing is typically a byproduct of trying to counteract the jitter created at high dpi, but it is not as simple as high dpi equals high smoothing. The 2013 deathadder for example its reputed as having some of the heaviest smoothing and has a max dpi of 6400, while the mionix naos and avior 7000 has 7000 dpi and less smoothing. Mice with the 3090 sensor, that have over 3500 dpi are also reputed to have very heavy smoothing.

Logitech claims that with the sensor in the g502, a responsive and accurate sensor were their primary goals and they only had the max dpi at a range that didn't compromise either of those goals. Of coarse if companies were always 100% honest the world would be a completely different place. Also, my understanding was that they claim all their mice with delta zero technology have that same standard, but their g400s has delta zero technology and is reputed to have fairly heavy smoothing. And in my experience in the world of peripherals, engineers often underestimate what the human body is capable of. Engineers might think a couple ms is negligible and people might be able to notice it. Also with mice, it seems like marketing departments are pretty convinced that higher DPI sells more mice, so its likely many engineers are pushed towards exceedingly high DPI despite it having a negative effect on the mouse's performance.

One of the biggest problems with smoothing is that there is no clear test for it at least there is none readily available to consumers. You can't draw a line or turn in a shooter and through a video of that action people can see smoothing. Because there is no clear test, its all feel, and when its only about feel, the placebo effect is extremely real and extremely significant. Roach for example is one of the people that is most sensitive to smoothing, but through his experiences he is also convinced that High DPI results in smoothing, so while he may legitimately detect smoothing in many mice, there is the threat that he could test for smoothing in a high dpi mouse and because he is already fully expecting there to be smoothing, he detects smoothing that doesn't exist.

Because testing for smoothing is unreliable because of the placebo effect, we have to rely on numbers and because the g502 is brand new, it is hard to conclude whether it likely has significant smoothing or not until more sensitive people test it for themselves.
Edited by Atavax - 4/14/14 at 6:38am
post #17 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atavax View Post

my limited understanding is that all mice have prediction and smoothing. some mice have more then others, and its typically excessive prediction and smoothing that is undesirable. Smoothing is typically a byproduct of trying to counteract the jitter created at high dpi, but it is not as simple as high dpi equals high smoothing. The 2013 deathadder for example its reputed as having some of the heaviest smoothing and has a max dpi of 6400, while the mionix naos and avior 7000 has 7000 dpi and less smoothing. Mice with the 3090 sensor, that have over 3500 dpi are also reputed to have very heavy smoothing.

Logitech claims that with the sensor in the g502, a responsive and accurate sensor was their primary goal and they only had the max dpi at a range that didn't compromise either of those goals. Of coarse if companies were always 100% honest the world would be a completely different place. Also, my understanding was that they claim all their mice with delta zero technology have that same standard, but their g400s has delta zero technology and is reputed to have fairly heavy smoothing. And in my experience in the world of peripherals, engineers often underestimate what the human body is capable of. Engineers might think a couple ms is negligible and people might be able to notice it.

One of the biggest problems with smoothing is that there is no clear test for it at least there is none readily available to consumers. You can't draw a line or turn in a shooter and through a video of that action people can see smoothing. Because there is no clear test, its all feel, and when its only about feel, the placebo effect is extremely real and extremely significant. Roach for example is one of the people that is most sensitive to smoothing, but through his experiences he is also convinced that High DPI results in smoothing, so while he may legitimately detect smoothing in many mice, there is the threat that he could test for smoothing in a high dpi mouse and because he is already fully expecting there to be smoothing, he detects smoothing that doesn't exist.

Because testing for smoothing is unreliable because of the placebo effect, we have to rely on numbers and because the g502 is brand new and it is hard to conclude whether it likely has significant smoothing or not until more people test it for themselves.

Delta Zero is basically just their marketing term for no acceleration. They don't claim all their Delta Zero mice have no smoothing, it is very specifically just their new G502 sensor.

The rest of your post lines up with my understanding of things as well, however while most/all sensors in the past may have had some amount of smoothing or jitter correction or angle correction, Logitech is saying there is literally none of that programmed into this sensor. Not minimal amounts that would not be apparent to most users, but zero, and they fully admit this stuff hasn't been done before. Example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puma-685VEw#t=5m45s

It's up to you and everyone else if they want to take their word for it. Personally I think their efforts were genuine with the sensor and there is some circumstantial evidence pointing that way as well.
post #18 of 30
cpate describes delta zero as more then just no acceleration
Quote:
Originally Posted by CPate View Post

Delta Zero technology is a suite of things that we do to deliver tracking performance that has no perceptible speed-related accuracy variance (aka acceleration).

The responsiveness of the sensor is one aspect of this technology development effort. It's not something that I can easily describe other than it feels more responsive than any mouse I've used before. And clearly, this is a difficult claim for me to back up over a forum.
post #19 of 30
First sentence pretty clearly defines Delta Zero as meaning no accel. The "technology development effort" part is not contradictory to that and infers something that is evolving with time and does not apply retroactively to mice from years ago.

Although I'm not even sure why that needs to be pointed out. Everything CPate and any other Logitech source has said on the product specifically refers to the new sensor when talking about smoothing and other similar properties.

edit: Another post of him defining Delta Zero as no accel - http://www.overclock.net/t/1479217/new-logitech-g502-proteus-core/300_20#post_22086466
Edited by xmr1 - 4/14/14 at 7:54am
post #20 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by xmr1 View Post

First sentence pretty clearly defines Delta Zero as meaning no accel. The "technology development effort" part is not contradictory to that and infers something that is evolving with time and does not apply retroactively to mice from years ago.

Although I'm not even sure why that needs to be pointed out. Everything CPate and any other Logitech source has said on the product specifically refers to the new sensor when talking about smoothing and other similar properties.

edit: Another post of him defining Delta Zero as no accel - http://www.overclock.net/t/1479217/new-logitech-g502-proteus-core/300_20#post_22086466


"The responsiveness of the sensor is one aspect of this technology development effort." imo clearly says that responsiveness of the sensor is one aspect of the delta zero technology.

nowhere does he specify that the only standard of delta zero technology is no acceleration. Its a performance standard for speed related accuracy and one aspect of that is no acceleration. Another aspect of it is responsiveness.
Edited by Atavax - 4/14/14 at 8:38am
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