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High performance radiator. What's the BEST out there? - Page 7

post #61 of 127
Yeah, I wouldn't look at Bundy's restriction tests for any degree of accuracy. Remember that he is testing an entire loop, not just the radiator like Martin is, and the limiting factor is not the rad. The differences he is recording between the UT60 and XT45 are tiny too, in the 0.01GPM range. This is well within any kind of error margin I would expect from a rotating element flow meter.

The one thing I would really take from Bundy's flow testing is that the radiator restriction makes very little difference in an overall loop compared to other elements.

I have yet to see anything said against the thermal testing, but again remember that Bundy is testing real world scenarios, Martin is testing more of a lab based scenario. Both methods are equally valid in terms of comparison so long as you take this fact into consideration.
Edited by GingerJohn - 4/16/14 at 10:49am
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post #62 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by GingerJohn View Post

Yeah, I wouldn't look at Bundy's restriction tests for any degree of accuracy. Remember that he is testing an entire loop, not just the radiator like Martin is, and the limiting factor is not the rad. The differences he is recording between the UT60 and XT45 are tiny too, in the 0.01GPM range. This is well within any kind of error margin I would expect from a rotating element flow meter.

The one thing I would really take from Bundy's flow testing is that the radiator restriction makes very little difference in an overall loop compared to other elements.

Exactly this,Thank you.
Edited by B NEGATIVE - 4/16/14 at 10:59am
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post #63 of 127
Okay.
Finally someone else agrees that Bundy's restriction testing is innacurate.

Martin tests attempt to isolate the component he is testing. He doesn't care how a particular rad will perform in a particular case. He just wants to observe that naked data on a specific rad.

Bundy's tests are only relevent if you use the same real world parameters as he does. So maybe his tests are relevent to no more than 2-3 people in the world.....okay, maybe 5 people.

As for Bundy's flow tests. It's clear his flow testing is flawed.
But why is it flawed?

Clogged rads?
Flow sensor error?
Water temp affecting flow sensor?
Deteriorating flow sensor over time?
Deteriorating pump over time?
Uneven delivery of power to the pump?
Poor innacurate data collection?
And the list of possibilities goes on.......

Your crystal ball guess is as good as my spinning wheel of guesses,
We just don't know since Bundy does not reveil to anyone but B Neg what his "proven method" consists of exactly.

I will agree that flow restriction is marginal and varies little from rad to rad. So if you want to test restriction variations you need precise methology and precise tools.
If the testing method and tools offer an error margins of 10% when the actual flow differs only by 5% between rads, than the testing is basically invalid.

What we have to undetstand here is that the cooling performance between rads is also negligeable. And even my opponent agrees as he states "All rads perform within 1.5/2c."
So if the performance variations between rads is, ley's say as an example, 5% than you really need a methology and tools that have an error margin of less than 1%..
If rads performance varies by 5%, testing with an error margin of 10% becomes invalid.

And what's important to understand here is that Bundy throws the XT45 over his head and claims "This is less restrictive than the UT60 or Monsta"
He never ever questionned the validity of his data. Never inspected the rad for obstruction, or recalibrated the flow meter, or asked himself why there is such an obvious error.
Either he doesn't care about the obvious errors, or he never even noticed them.

This sort of testing practice does not set a solid footing for the temp performance side of his tests.
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post #64 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by GingerJohn View Post

Yeah, I wouldn't look at Bundy's restriction tests for any degree of accuracy.
I don't think you should look at his thermal testing with any degree of accuracy either.
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post #65 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by PepeLapiu View Post

Okay.
Finally someone else agrees that Bundy's restriction testing is innacurate.

Martin tests attempt to isolate the component he is testing. He doesn't care how a particular rad will perform in a particular case. He just wants to observe that naked data on a specific rad.

Bundy's tests are only relevent if you use the same real world parameters as he does. So maybe his tests are relevent to no more than 2-3 people in the world.....okay, maybe 5 people.

As for Bundy's flow tests. It's clear his flow testing is flawed.
But why is it flawed?

Clogged rads?
Flow sensor error?
Water temp affecting flow sensor?
Deteriorating flow sensor over time?
Deteriorating pump over time?
Uneven delivery of power to the pump?
Poor innacurate data collection?
And the list of possibilities goes on.......

Your crystal ball guess is as good as my spinning wheel of guesses,
We just don't know since Bundy does not reveil to anyone but B Neg what his "proven method" consists of exactly.

I will agree that flow restriction is marginal and varies little from rad to rad. So if you want to test restriction variations you need precise methology and precise tools.
If the testing method and tools offer an error margins of 10% when the actual flow differs only by 5% between rads, than the testing is basically invalid.

What we have to undetstand here is that the cooling performance between rads is also negligeable. And even my opponent agrees as he states "All rads perform within 1.5/2c."
So if the performance variations between rads is, ley's say as an example, 5% than you really need a methology and tools that have an error margin of less than 1%..
If rads performance varies by 5%, testing with an error margin of 10% becomes invalid.

And what's important to understand here is that Bundy throws the XT45 over his head and claims "This is less restrictive than the UT60 or Monsta"
He never ever questionned the validity of his data. Never inspected the rad for obstruction, or recalibrated the flow meter, or asked himself why there is such an obvious error.
Either he doesn't care about the obvious errors, or he never even noticed them.

This sort of testing practice does not set a solid footing for the temp performance side of his tests.
Quote:
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Testing procedure:

I used Prime95 in the latest version for stress-testing the CPU (Small FFTs). All temperatures were logged with the „Aquasuite“ from the „Aquaero 4 Control-Unit“. All measured values were taken after 60 minutes of stress-testing.


The most interesting value in my comparison is the difference (Delta T) of the room temperature according to the water temperature of the Radiator. The Delta T shows the cooling capacity of the Radiator according to the difference of the room and water temperature. Therefore the conclusion is very easy: If the difference between the two temperatures is very small, it shows the good cooling performance of the Radiator. I think the Delta-T, the flow-rate and the different fan speeds are the most interesting values, so I would like to focus this values in my scales for an easy understanding of them.

First page of the test that you didnt read obviously.....


What part of the test are you struggling with exactly? He is testing in a loop,not a lab. And an open air bench,not a case. You claim he has not done any error checking,why are you passing off your opinion as fact? He makes no mention of not error checking either.

You say flow is marginal yet you want it tested so precise,hardly a requirement for marginal values....

Basically,you tried to troll and have utterly failed,
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post #66 of 127
I could make the argument that Bundy's testing is a better reference because he is using real world situations. You get an idea how the radiators will perform in a full loop with waterblocks and tubing and everything else that isn't in a Lab testing setup. Never will anyone have a Lab setting like Martin does to run their loop. Mainly because there are no waterblocks in Martin's testing. Not saying one is more right or better than the other. Just two totally different scenarios.

It's like having a speaker system in a padded room vs a nonpadded room. You're going to get different results and sound in each setting, but neither is wrong.

And you keep saying Bundy is wrong because he results are different that Martin's. That's because they are two completely different testing scenarios. One is a lab setting with only a radiator and pump, which will never happen in the real world because it's pointless to have a loop with just a radiator and pump. Bundy has at least a CPU waterblock in the loop with his testing, which obviously will produce different results than Martin.

Until I see concrete evidence that Bundy is indeed wrong in everything he is doing, I will continue to trust his testing and reviews.

And you're wrong about the whole crystal ball thing. It is in fact a Magic 8-Ball. Which everyone knows is far more accurate than a crystal ball. Unless my results don't match yours perfectly

Quote:
Originally Posted by B NEGATIVE View Post

We have not even seen this test rig of yours....or any rig tbh.
Also, this. Of all the posts I have seen of yours, I have never seen pictures of any hardware, let alone a full functioning loop.
Edited by morencyam - 4/16/14 at 12:50pm
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post #67 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by morencyam View Post

I could make the argument that Bundy's testing is a better reference because he is using real world situations. You get an idea how the radiators will perform in a full loop with waterblocks and tubing and everything else that isn't in a Lab testing setup. Never will anyone have a Lab setting like Martin does to run their loop. Mainly because there are no waterblocks in Martin's testing. Not saying one is more right or better than the other. Just two totally different scenarios.

It's like having a speaker system in a padded room vs a nonpadded room. You're going to get different results and sound in each setting, but neither is wrong.

And you keep saying Bundy is wrong because he results are different that Martin's. That's because they are two completely different testing scenarios. One is a lab setting with only a radiator and pump, which will never happen in the real world because it's pointless to have a loop with just a radiator and pump. Bundy has at least a CPU waterblock in the loop with his testing, which obviously will produce different results than Martin.

Until I see concrete evidence that Bundy is indeed wrong in everything he is doing, I will continue to trust his testing and reviews.

And you're wrong about the whole crystal ball thing. It is in fact a Magic 8-Ball. Which everyone knows is far more accurate than a crystal ball. Unless my results don't match yours perfectly

He doesnt get it Morencyam,Bundy's testing is RL use rather than an abstract lab result,he wont quit now.... Bit like Jack and his ridiculous '10c delta' nonsense
0.01GPM difference in a loop and all of a sudden its 'Bundy is derp fail'

Pepe,so many people have explained it to you now,only ignorance and pigheadedness is holding you back now.
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post #68 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by B NEGATIVE View Post

He doesnt get it Morencyam,Bundy's testing is RL use rather than an abstract lab result,he wont quit now.... Bit like Jack and his ridiculous '10c delta' nonsense
0.01GPM difference in a loop and all of a sudden its 'Bundy is derp fail'

Pepe,so many people have explained it to you now,only ignorance and pigheadedness is holding you back now.
I think Jack and Pepe should get together and releasing start their own radiator testing reviews. I think it would be a huge hit rolleyes.gif

Not my first time back and forth with Pepe though. Like when he told me I was wrong because I didn't notice a whine on my GTs on a fan controller at 5V vs a 5V adapter. I guess my ears are just wrong. Or when I was wrong because I said I like HWL rads better than Alphacool because they have a higher build quality. That one was my favorite. My opinion is the wrong opinion
Edited by morencyam - 4/16/14 at 1:16pm
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post #69 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by morencyam View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by B NEGATIVE View Post

He doesnt get it Morencyam,Bundy's testing is RL use rather than an abstract lab result,he wont quit now.... Bit like Jack and his ridiculous '10c delta' nonsense
0.01GPM difference in a loop and all of a sudden its 'Bundy is derp fail'

Pepe,so many people have explained it to you now,only ignorance and pigheadedness is holding you back now.
I think Jack and Pepe should get together and releasing start their own radiator testing reviews. I think it would be a huge hit rolleyes.gif

Not my first time back and forth with Pepe though. Like when he told me I was wrong because I didn't notice a whine on my GTs on a fan controller at 5V vs a 5V adapter. I guess my ears are just wrong.

That is the basis for nearly every post he makes......
We are all wrong.

You ever see any actual pics of his 'test' setup? or any rig for that matter?
I have asked a number of times and yet....after all this time....nada.
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post #70 of 127
Nope, never seen one. I was actually wondering about that earlier today. He makes all these recommendations to people and claims all sorts of experience and knowledge, but have never seen a rig of any kind, testing or otherwise.

Even checking his "Sig Rig' he only has watercooling parts listed there. No indication that there is actualy a PC to go with all that cooling gear. Who knows, maybe he runs a watercooling loop with just a pump and radiators like Martin.
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(8 items)
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Core i5 4670K Gigabyte Z97N-WiFi Zotac GTX 980 ti Reference 16gb Hyper X 
Hard DriveCoolingOSMonitor
Samsung 830 256gb Raijintek EreBoss Core Edition  Win10 Pro x64  LG 29UM57-P 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
CM Storm QuickFire TK w/ MX Browns Silverstone Strider Platinum 550 Raijintek Styx Logitech G700 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel Core i3 2100 Intel DH61BEB3 mATX XFX 6670 2GB 8gb GSkill Ares DDR3-1600 
Hard DriveHard DriveCoolingOS
SanDisk SSD Plus 120gb SSD Seagate Barracuda 2TB Arctic Freezer 11 LP Win7 Ultimate x64 
MonitorPowerCase
47" LED TV Corsair CX430 SilverStone Grandia GD05B HTPC  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel Core 2 Duo E8400 MSI G41TM-E43 GT 610 2GB Corsair DDR2 
Hard DriveHard DriveCoolingOS
64GB Crucial C300 WD Green 500GB Coolermaster Hyper TX3 Win7 Ultimate x64 
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BlackOut
(13 items)
 
Living Room HTPC
(11 items)
 
Bedroom HTPC
(8 items)
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Core i5 4670K Gigabyte Z97N-WiFi Zotac GTX 980 ti Reference 16gb Hyper X 
Hard DriveCoolingOSMonitor
Samsung 830 256gb Raijintek EreBoss Core Edition  Win10 Pro x64  LG 29UM57-P 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
CM Storm QuickFire TK w/ MX Browns Silverstone Strider Platinum 550 Raijintek Styx Logitech G700 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel Core i3 2100 Intel DH61BEB3 mATX XFX 6670 2GB 8gb GSkill Ares DDR3-1600 
Hard DriveHard DriveCoolingOS
SanDisk SSD Plus 120gb SSD Seagate Barracuda 2TB Arctic Freezer 11 LP Win7 Ultimate x64 
MonitorPowerCase
47" LED TV Corsair CX430 SilverStone Grandia GD05B HTPC  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel Core 2 Duo E8400 MSI G41TM-E43 GT 610 2GB Corsair DDR2 
Hard DriveHard DriveCoolingOS
64GB Crucial C300 WD Green 500GB Coolermaster Hyper TX3 Win7 Ultimate x64 
  hide details  
Reply
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Overclock.net › Forums › Cooling › Water Cooling › High performance radiator. What's the BEST out there?