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High performance radiator. What's the BEST out there? - Page 8

post #71 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by morencyam View Post

Nope, never seen one. I was actually wondering about that earlier today. He makes all these recommendations to people and claims all sorts of experience and knowledge, but have never seen a rig of any kind, testing or otherwise.

Even checking his "Sig Rig' he only has watercooling parts listed there. No indication that there is actualy a PC to go with all that cooling gear. Who knows, maybe he runs a watercooling loop with just a pump and radiators like Martin.


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post #72 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by morencyam View Post

I could make the argument that Bundy's testing is a better reference because he is using real world situations. You get an idea how the radiators will perform in a full loop with waterblocks and tubing and everything else that isn't in a Lab testing setup.

Actually, Bundy's tests can only be useable to you if you use the same test bed as he does in the same conditions with the same variables in place.
Bundy's real world scenario is only relevent to you if you have the exact same real world scenario.
Quote:
Never will anyone have a Lab setting like Martin does to run their loop. Mainly because there are no waterblocks in Martin's testing. Not saying one is more right or better than the other. Just two totally different scenarios.

What Martin does is comparing components in a vacuum. Of course, you and I will never run any of our components in a vacuum as he does.
But if you pick his best performing rad at a given speed, and that rad nets you poir performance, than you know something else is wrong in your loop..
Likely, the rad is not the culprit of the decreased performance, something else is.
Quote:
It's like having a speaker system in a padded room vs a nonpadded room. You're going to get different results and sound in each setting, but neither is wrong.

A padded sound stage is a great way to discard all other variables and concentrate on the sound quality only.
If your system was the best sounding sysyem in the padded room, and it suddenly sounds crappier than all other systems in your living room, likely your saleman ripped you off or something else is causing the poor sound in your living room.

Same applies to Martin's testing.
Bundy's testing? Not so much.
Quote:
And you keep saying Bundy is wrong because he results are different that Martin's.

I never said that. I said that very simple logic tells you a XT45 can not possibly be less restrictive than a UT60, or Monsta.
I said that Martin's tests concur with this most simple logic.
And I said that my own tests also concur with this very simple logical conclusion.
I said that Bundy's flow tests not only conflict with Martin's tests . But they also conflict with the most basic common sense. And they also conflict with my own crude testing.
Quote:
That's because they are two completely different testing scenarios.

Yup. One scenario fits the most simple scientific logic, and the other one goes against it.
Quote:
Until I see concrete evidence that Bundy is indeed wrong in everything he is doing, I will continue to trust his testing and reviews.

Very well, suite yourself. But I didn't go into his thermal testing yet. I only touched on his flow trsting, which I have proven to be erronious. And I never claimed that he is wrong on everything. Please stop errecting strawman arguemebts to debate against.
Quote:
Also, this. Of all the posts I have seen of yours, I have never seen pictures of any hardware, let alone a full functioning loop.

"I dare do all that may become a man. Who dares more is none"
-Hamlet

I have never seen your hardware, or Bundy's, or Martin's either. Nor do I care to.
This is of little relevence to me. I would rather discuss hard data and science over personnal characterisation and ad hominen attacks.

I have had a few water cooled rigs. But never did a build log, and probably never will.

This present build is by far my most ambitious so far. But it's a slow one, and I 'might' start getting hardware for it this summer....or maybe not.
I also have an engineering background. Civil engineering undergraduate. And a curiosity for science and understanding.

And I love strangling cut puppies and kitten in my spare time with my bare hands. Go ahead, attack that if you want.
Edited by PepeLapiu - 4/16/14 at 2:08pm
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post #73 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by morencyam View Post

Nope, never seen one. I was actually wondering about that earlier today. He makes all these recommendations to people and claims all sorts of experience and knowledge, but have never seen a rig of any kind, testing or otherwise.

Even checking his "Sig Rig' he only has watercooling parts listed there. No indication that there is actualy a PC to go with all that cooling gear. Who knows, maybe he runs a watercooling loop with just a pump and radiators like Martin.

At first, I had nothing in my sig, nothing at all.
And I would prefer to keep it that way.

But others have repeatedly requested that I fill in my sig.

Why not debate what I say over your conceived views of my experience, or lack of?

You want to debate facts and science?
Or you want to debate my personnality and credibility?
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post #74 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by madcratebuilder View Post

Those are well made fans but the blade spacing looks like they are low static pressure fans. I do not see a SP spec on the spec sheet, great case fan, not sure about a rad fan. I'll spend the extra $3 and get F12's
They are suitable, just not as much so as Sanyo's thicker fans.
Quote:
Originally Posted by B NEGATIVE View Post

Observant,I like.
These are indeed not suited to rads based on blade spacing,the wider the blades,the less static pressure is generated.
Blade size and shape matters more than spacing, and the shape and size in use is optimal for that spacing. Sanyo knows what they're doing.
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post #75 of 127
As an actual scientist in a field infinitely more complex than basic water-air heat transfer, I find absolutely zero fault with the testing methodology bundy uses. It seems as though you are demanding results, the accuracy of which is unfeasible for anyone without access to a lab worth more than your house probably ten times over. It would be absolutely insane to devote that amount of time and money to testing something so (realistically speaking) completely worthless.

What we have are a miniscule number of devoted enthusiasts who dedicate tremendous time and money not for their own benefit, but for the benefit of the community as a whole. The "big 3" all deserve respect, because instead of joining the millions of whiners and occasional indignant and stubborn "enthusiasts" who bicker over hypotheticals with a minimum of actual experience, they ARE the reason for water cooler no longer being seen as a fringe, "magic" phenomenon.

When talking about testing something so simple and with such an incredibly miniscule number of variables, the methodology itself is of little consequence.

The only thing that matters, is that the testing is performed under identical circumstances using identical, controllable setups.

The only thing that is of any importance is the CONSISTENCY of results, and IT DOESN'T MATTER if he's using an Aquasuite or a $30k junior lab setup, so long as the variance (delta) across the compared radiators remains the same consistenly, then tthe data is absolutely accurate for the purpose for which it was gathered.


It's very easy to criticize from the outside looking in, especially when a number of those criticisms are already based in a flawed understanding of the basic nature of the science behind what's being tested..
I don't know how old you are or what you do for a living, but from the posts above, I get a sense of "taken a required physics and Chem class, once"... It's like the first yearpsych sstudentswho tthink they have some incredible understanding of the human mind, and actively fail to realize that they're not the smartest person in the room, and that they have only barely skimmed the subject.
I am not saying that in a mean hearted way, I am simply making an observation.


If you really feel that the testing is useless, and if you have as much experience as you allege, then you need to be conducting a battery of tests with video/photo evidence of the active test procedure, be able to repeat the tests with identical results a month after you do the first round (if they don't match, you can toss the data, or continue to find the ultimate test methodology by putting hundreds more hours minimum into the tests), and do so for each of the rads that bundy has tested. Oh, and you will need an unimpeachable, well respected, and one hundred percent impartial witness, keeping a separate log that you can never under any circumstances see, to ensure that your biases are not influencing results.

Until then, as a heavily specialized Behavioral Psychobiological Neuro chemist (psychopharmacologist), I am willing to say that I after spending the immense time and dedication over the better part of a decade learning, I base my opinion on this experience, and that is that the testing is flawless because it provided exactly the data needed, and was performed in a manner that negates almost all possible inconsistent sets.

This is comparison testing, which is tedious but not difficult; it is not nor is it presented as being an absolute measure of performance, ONLY the performance delta between various models.
   
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post #76 of 127
Yeah, I'll debate fact. The fact is you have not backed up any of your statements with hard data. You claim to have done all kinds of test yet have no hard evidence to back any of it up. You trust Martin so much because of his meticulous record keeping and explanation of his testing procedure. You discredit Bundy for not posting any of the data, only the "erroneous" results. So lets see your meticulous record keeping, and data logging, and testing setup. For all I know you're just a guy sitting in a basement making up all your testing results. The fact is, I trust Bundy and Martin equally. If Bundy was so wrong I doubt he would be so popular and keep making more reviews, and even recommended by Martin.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nleksan View Post

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
As an actual scientist in a field infinitely more complex than basic water-air heat transfer, I find absolutely zero fault with the testing methodology bundy uses. It seems as though you are demanding results, the accuracy of which is unfeasible for anyone without access to a lab worth more than your house probably ten times over. It would be absolutely insane to devote that amount of time and money to testing something so (realistically speaking) completely worthless.

What we have are a miniscule number of devoted enthusiasts who dedicate tremendous time and money not for their own benefit, but for the benefit of the community as a whole. The "big 3" all deserve respect, because instead of joining the millions of whiners and occasional indignant and stubborn "enthusiasts" who bicker over hypotheticals with a minimum of actual experience, they ARE the reason for water cooler no longer being seen as a fringe, "magic" phenomenon.

When talking about testing something so simple and with such an incredibly miniscule number of variables, the methodology itself is of little consequence.

The only thing that matters, is that the testing is performed under identical circumstances using identical, controllable setups.

The only thing that is of any importance is the CONSISTENCY of results, and IT DOESN'T MATTER if he's using an Aquasuite or a $30k junior lab setup, so long as the variance (delta) across the compared radiators remains the same consistenly, then tthe data is absolutely accurate for the purpose for which it was gathered.


It's very easy to criticize from the outside looking in, especially when a number of those criticisms are already based in a flawed understanding of the basic nature of the science behind what's being tested..
I don't know how old you are or what you do for a living, but from the posts above, I get a sense of "taken a required physics and Chem class, once"... It's like the first yearpsych sstudentswho tthink they have some incredible understanding of the human mind, and actively fail to realize that they're not the smartest person in the room, and that they have only barely skimmed the subject.
I am not saying that in a mean hearted way, I am simply making an observation.


If you really feel that the testing is useless, and if you have as much experience as you allege, then you need to be conducting a battery of tests with video/photo evidence of the active test procedure, be able to repeat the tests with identical results a month after you do the first round (if they don't match, you can toss the data, or continue to find the ultimate test methodology by putting hundreds more hours minimum into the tests), and do so for each of the rads that bundy has tested. Oh, and you will need an unimpeachable, well respected, and one hundred percent impartial witness, keeping a separate log that you can never under any circumstances see, to ensure that your biases are not influencing results.

Until then, as a heavily specialized Behavioral Psychobiological Neuro chemist (psychopharmacologist), I am willing to say that I after spending the immense time and dedication over the better part of a decade learning, I base my opinion on this experience, and that is that the testing is flawless because it provided exactly the data needed, and was performed in a manner that negates almost all possible inconsistent sets.

This is comparison testing, which is tedious but not difficult; it is not nor is it presented as being an absolute measure of performance, ONLY the performance delta between various models.
So very very well said! thumbsupsmiley.png:applaud:
Edited by morencyam - 4/16/14 at 2:26pm
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post #77 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chunky_Chimp View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by madcratebuilder View Post

Those are well made fans but the blade spacing looks like they are low static pressure fans. I do not see a SP spec on the spec sheet, great case fan, not sure about a rad fan. I'll spend the extra $3 and get F12's
They are suitable, just not as much so as Sanyo's thicker fans.
Quote:
Originally Posted by B NEGATIVE View Post

Observant,I like.
These are indeed not suited to rads based on blade spacing,the wider the blades,the less static pressure is generated.
Blade size and shape matters more than spacing, and the shape and size in use is optimal for that spacing. Sanyo knows what they're doing.

They do indeed and these are not suited to radiators.
They are a free flow design,the blade design is as you say but only in securing a closed in blade design.

Case in point,used as the fans have the same motor.





The AF has a significant amount more gapping between the blades,the SP doesnt share this characteristic,it is more closed in with less gapping and the static results back the changes up

To add variety,the evergreen GT also fulfills this criteria.



This fan does not have the wide,flat blades that promote pressure of the SP

Signifcantly less gapping than the Sanyo.

Now the other end of the scale,Noctua's



Massive gapping and not a rad fan by any means...you see the pattern developing here?


No one is saying that Sanyo dont know what they are doing,they are enterprise class fans for good reason. However,what Sanyo purposed that fan (PSU fan apparently....rolleyes.gif) for and what its actually being used for are different things.

Pitch for flow and wide,flat blades for push. Failing that,go for many blades and block out any potential back flow.
Edited by B NEGATIVE - 4/16/14 at 3:00pm
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post #78 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by B NEGATIVE View Post

They do indeed and these are not suited to radiators.
They are a free flow design,the blade design is as you say but only in securing a closed in blade design.

Case in point,used as the fans have the same motor.

The AF has a significant amount more gapping between the blades,the SP doesnt share this characteristic,it is more closed in with less gapping and the static results back the changes up

To add variety,the evergreen GT also fulfills this criteria.

This fan does not have the wide,flat blades that promote pressure of the SP

Signifcantly less gapping than the Sanyo.

Now the other end of the scale,Noctua's

Massive gapping and not a rad fan by any means...you see the pattern developing here?


No one is saying that Sanyo dont know what they are doing,they are enterprise class fans for good reason. However,what Sanyo purposed that fan (PSU fan apparently....rolleyes.gif) for and what its actually being used for are different things.

Pitch for flow and wide,flat blades for push. Failing that,go for many blades and block out any potential back flow.
I had a good understanding of all that already, but that Noctua isn't a particularly good example as there's pretty much everything wrong with it, not just spacing. Again, spacing isn't the only factor here, as evident with the other fans, though I was more getting at the spacing from where the blades start, not the overall space between the blade curves. The size and shape differences between the Corsair AF and SP fans make the difference, it isn't as much to do with spacing, as demonstrated by GentleTyphoons. The shape and spacing are good, apart from the notches cut into the blades, but the blades themselves are just too thin to give the design an advantage over something more traditional like what S-Flexes and Yates employ.
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Deep Blood
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post #79 of 127
no they dump far more heat then the cpu that's the point, bigger rad = more liquid = lower max water temp
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samsung 500 gb samsung dvd antec H2O 920 windows vista 64b 
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post #80 of 127
you compare rad fans with the noctua fan for moving air ? doesn't make any sens ,.....
HAF X - main rig
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E8500 ASUS P5E3 ASUS dcuii TOP GTX 670 OCZ reaper x hpc  
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samsung 500 gb samsung dvd antec H2O 920 windows vista 64b 
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LG 23 passive 3d logitech g15 CORSAIR GS800 haf xb 
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logitech g500 logitech Z 2300 
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HAF X - main rig
(24 items)
 
HAF XB
(14 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
E8500 ASUS P5E3 ASUS dcuii TOP GTX 670 OCZ reaper x hpc  
Hard DriveOptical DriveCoolingOS
samsung 500 gb samsung dvd antec H2O 920 windows vista 64b 
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LG 23 passive 3d logitech g15 CORSAIR GS800 haf xb 
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logitech g500 logitech Z 2300 
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