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post #31 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mand12 View Post

It's subjective...until I start actually picking components to put in a new high-end gaming machine. When one company is the only meaningful option and the other just has nothing remotely comparable, I feel reasonable being a little irked that they're not both competing for my money.

Yeah... I also fail to see how performance rating is completely subjective. When one company has a set of chips the other simply cannot compete with, what's the point of saying "extreme performance" is subjective?

I mean, I guess you could redefine "extreme" to be relative to a Pentium 4 or something, and make a $80 APU look godly, but at that point you have just decided to remove all relevant meaning from your evaluation.

The only subjectivity in "extreme performance" is rather your definition has enough wiggle room to include something like an 8320/8350 (which is often comparable to an i7 in gaming, especially if overclocked), or if you have an even narrower definition that only includes 4930k/x chips, or I guess if you impose an arbitrary clock restriction on it (e.g. any i7 at 5 GHz+ is "extreme").
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post #32 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultracarpet View Post

It is subjective COMPLETELY. It depends on what you use the computer for.

"This plane is totally awesome!"

"What are you talking about? It doesn't even get off the ground..."

"But it handles like a racecar!"


No, performance is not subjective.
post #33 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultracarpet View Post

It is subjective COMPLETELY. It depends on what you use the computer for. I provided a possible definition on what high end means for consumers; and did you see me mentioning AMD in that high end definition? I mean processors like the 9590 (don't bring price into this I'm strictly talking performance) could be considered high end in some aspects and uses, but would be completely dependant on software that allows it to perform on par with an i7-4770k (extremely parallel apps).

There is no doubt which company makes more powerful hardware, for the majority current software (single threaded and multithreaded apps), at their respective top ends of product lines. The definition of high-end, though, is absolutely subjective to the user.

kookoo.gif

Now this is just silliness, and let me use a simple analogy to show why: my Camry goes as fast as I ever need a car to go, but it is by no means an "extreme performance" car, and precisely zero people in the world would ever describe it as such. rolleyes.gif
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post #34 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mand12 View Post

"This plane is totally awesome!"

"What are you talking about? It doesn't even get off the ground..."

"But it handles like a racecar!"


No, performance is not subjective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMack70 View Post

kookoo.gif

Now this is just silliness, and let me use a simple analogy to show why: my Camry goes as fast as I ever need a car to go, but it is by no means an "extreme performance" car, and precisely zero people in the world would ever describe it as such. rolleyes.gif

Let's say that the only thing a person will be doing is using a certain video editing application and that is all they will use their rig for. Let's say that this hypothetical application utilizes multiple threads and the fx-9590 is able to perform as well as an I7-4770k in that application... now if you went to someone else that also only uses their rig for that video editing app but has an I7-4770k then how could you say that the second guys rig is high end and the first ones isn't? They perform the same for their uses.

Mand, you said it in your first reply; "high-end gaming rig". Gaming is the key word. A high-end system changes from application to application and even game to game. If all you play are new AAA titles that are utilizing new game engines which are well threaded, then a 9590 is probably going to perform near a i7-4770k in most games. If they perform almost the same, how could you call one system a high end system and the other not?

It's the software that determines performance; it's the user that dictates what software they use.

Also before anyone jumps on my for comparing an essentially OC'd 8350 to a I7-4770k... The average (majority) of consumers will never OC. So as long as they are at stock it should be a fair comparison. Obviously there is the 9590's power and cooling issues but that is for a different discussion.

p.s. Car analogies are a poor comparison; high end in a car market is again very subject and relies on completely different factors to determine "performance". Hint- It's not always about what car goes from 0-60 the fastest.
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post #35 of 71
My point is that the idea of "extreme performance" being 100% subjective is nonsense. Nobody thinks a Camry is an extreme performance car, and your whole argument is basically that if the Camry were a computer chip, it would be an "extreme performance" car to people. Just stop it.

We all know that AMD chips are "good enough" for most users. We all know that 90% of people out there never need an i7 for their computing needs. We all know that there are many applications (including many games) where AMD's top chips compete just fine with Intel's i7s.

None of that makes "extreme performance" a completely subjective category. Is there some subjectivity? Yes. Is it completely subjective? Only if you believe that there is zero meaning in the term.
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post #36 of 71
AMD VS Intel?

It's really Intel VS TSMC VS maybe Global Foundries. Though the birthchild of AMD (GloF) isn't really a competitor lately, most of its prospective clients flock to TSMC. Others put Samsung and others in the mix. It's really a foundries war, not a brand names war as most people fall into the trap to believe.

You could claim there is some war among their clients, like NVIDIA VS AMD (both on TSMC for GPUs) but really, it's their foundries that control the world. They can affect it as designers but if TSMC or GloF fail against Intel, Intel will win.
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post #37 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMack70 View Post

My point is that the idea of "extreme performance" being 100% subjective is nonsense. Nobody thinks a Camry is an extreme performance car, and your whole argument is basically that if the Camry were a computer chip, it would be an "extreme performance" car to people. Just stop it.

We all know that AMD chips are "good enough" for most users. We all know that 90% of people out there never need an i7 for their computing needs. We all know that there are many applications (including many games) where AMD's top chips compete just fine with Intel's i7s.

None of that makes "extreme performance" a completely subjective category. Is there some subjectivity? Yes. Is it completely subjective? Only if you believe that there is zero meaning in the term.

Dude I never said "Extreme Performance" I said "High End". I don't know what convictions you have to try and pin me under those words but regardless it doesn't make sense.

Cars and processors are so different you can't compare. To determine what is "High End" for processors is ONLY the performance of the processors, there is no leather seats, 35 speakers sound systems, or low profile wheels... just performance. "High End" cars could mean a whole variety of things. Performance as in speed and racing capability, luxury, features etc.. They are so different I can't even.

Going back to the processors; that performance which is the only judge of a processor is completely dependant on the software being used and the software being used is chosen by the user. You could say that high end is if you can get 60FPS in almost all games at max settings. But then there is lots of processors that could do that with a really good GPU. Or you could say High end is if you can render a 30 second video from a video editing application in 1 minute. Well there again is probably lots of processors that could do that; and or it would depend on the app, the type of video, and tons of other variables.

I proposed that High End to consumers can be broken down to the comparing processors to another processor that is not argued to be anything less than "High End". In my example I used the I7-4770k.

So again. If a piece of software can perform the same on an I7-4770k as a 9590 then how could you consider one High End and the other not? It depends on the USER and the SOFTWARE. I realize that MOST of the time the 9590 cannot match the I7-4770k; but my point is that these situations exist.
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post #38 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultracarpet View Post

Dude I never said "Extreme Performance" I said "High End". I don't know what convictions you have to try and pin me under those words but regardless it doesn't make sense.

Cars and processors are so different you can't compare. To determine what is "High End" for processors is ONLY the performance of the processors, there is no leather seats, 35 speakers sound systems, or low profile wheels... just performance. "High End" cars could mean a whole variety of things. Performance as in speed and racing capability, luxury, features etc.. They are so different I can't even.

Going back to the processors; that performance which is the only judge of a processor is completely dependant on the software being used and the software being used is chosen by the user. You could say that high end is if you can get 60FPS in almost all games at max settings. But then there is lots of processors that could do that with a really good GPU. Or you could say High end is if you can render a 30 second video from a video editing application in 1 minute. Well there again is probably lots of processors that could do that; and or it would depend on the app, the type of video, and tons of other variables.

I proposed that High End to consumers can be broken down to the comparing processors to another processor that is not argued to be anything less than "High End". In my example I used the I7-4770k.

So again. If a piece of software can perform the same on an I7-4770k as a 9590 then how could you consider one High End and the other not? It depends on the USER and the SOFTWARE. I realize that MOST of the time the 9590 cannot match the I7-4770k; but my point is that these situations exist.

You said the following, and it is what I am referring to, which I don't think should have been unclear:
Quote:
Also... the whole extreme/high end crap is all completely subjective

Of course cars and processors are different. But the analogy is apt, and I think you have missed the point. In a metric which has objective data that can be quantified and linearly compared, it is not possible to obtain a completely subjective result from comparing any two (or more) pieces of that data.

There are high end chips, midrange chips, and low end chips (you can of course subdivide that further, if you want). That is not subjective. What chip a given user needs for a given task is a completely different question.

You are confusing the general (classification of the CPUs themselves) with the particular (what a specific user needs for a specific task).
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post #39 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMack70 View Post

You said the following, and it is what I am referring to, which I don't think should have been unclear:
Of course cars and processors are different. But the analogy is apt, and I think you have missed the point. In a metric which has objective data that can be quantified and linearly compared, it is not possible to obtain a completely subjective result from comparing any two (or more) pieces of that data.

There are high end chips, midrange chips, and low end chips (you can of course subdivide that further, if you want). That is not subjective. What chip a given user needs for a given task is a completely different question.

You are confusing the general (classification of the CPUs themselves) with the particular (what a specific user needs for a specific task).

My lord you don't quit. All semantics.

I said extreme/high END. which I then narrowed down to my point pertaining to just HIGH END. NOT PERFORMANCE like you were trying to push on me.

You are COMPLETELY missing the point and are busy arguing semantics of things that I wasn't even talking about.

Numbers from a test don't lie or change. They are concrete. It is the benchmarks and tests themselves that vary WIDELY. The performance of a processor in one software may be different than another. Thus if a person is only using one said software, and their processor, say a 9590, is just as good as say, a I7 4770k (that no one would argue as being a high end consumer product), in that it performs the same in that said software; you cannot call one high end and the other not.

You know what? I'll use your ridiculous car analogy. A BMW 7 series is considered "High End" and a Ferrari is considered "High End". If a stranger walked up to you and said "I want a high end car." You would naturally ask them "what do you mean by high end? Fast, economical, luxurious etc.?" This is the essence of my point. The figures of performance within each of these benchmarks do not change, it is the fact that there are many factors that matter.

This is like software in that there are games like... shooters, mmos, rts games and tons more; that all utilize hardware differently. Same goes with video editing software, 3d modeling, compiling, music creation... If people only use their computers for a few of these things, and the performance in them is that of a processor that no one could deny being high end, then it can be determined that their rig is in fact "High End".

You aren't even disputing the argument, and I don't know how you possibly could. Other than to say that High End should simply be the average of all of benchmarks added up and have it be a certain level of performance that would be in a percentage relative to everything else currently on the market. Which, if using your car analogy, would be ridiculous; adding together the luxury status of how fast a car can get to 60 to determine the overall "High End" status of something is using two things completely unrelated.
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AMD Ryzen™ 1700 Asrock Fatal1ty x370 Gaming K4 Zotac mini GTX 1080ti TridentZ 16GB (2x8GB) DDR4 
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256GB M.2 SSD 1TB HDD Windows 10 Pro Acer XG270HU 
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Logitech G15 750W Thermaltake Toughpower Gold Rated Thermaltake View 27 w/ riser Logitech G40 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
fx-8350 @5ghz 990fxa-ud3 rev 1.1 PowerColor 290x @1150/1500mhz Gskill 8gig 1600mhz (2x4) @2033 mhz 
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1TB WD Caviar Black rs360 raystorm kit Windows 8 Pro 700 Watt Corsair 
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HAF 912  Logitech G400 
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post #40 of 71
I got a headache after reading some of the comments, specially the cliche "Intel is extreme AMD is budget" ones. It really and almost entirely depends on the applications/games. Also, if you want to see real-life gaming & XSplit streaming benchmark tests of the FX-8350, for example, then check this out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eu8Sekdb-IE

Both companies make solid quality chips. The price isn't a factor for quality rate.
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Overclock.net › Forums › AMD › AMD - General › An interesting article from someone who researched AMD