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post #141 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by amdgig View Post

@ Offler , Its funny you should mention ramdive , I just installed one last night to give it a go and the os Shure did boot up faster 5 minutes ago .

Its the AMD one , I found it while looking for driver updates , its free but limited to 4Gb , atm I'm trying just 1024Mb , but larger if one pays a bit , not that I'm advertising deliberately but its the first one I've ever used .

Back to the general thread> , also I have noticed with all the information supplied no-one has mentioned that with win7 and games win7 keeps the game and latest used maps in memory and only loads off the hdd/ssd when a new map (say the next level for example) , so there is only loading from direct ram via the cpu involved when on current maps or levels so its really a moot point regarding ssd game loading as its only now and then , but still fast imo .

Watch the SSD/HDD led! , there is a lot of inactivity most times , until a new map ..

I believe it was mentioned couple of times, but not as explicitly as you did. It was more on the lines of "when prefetch does its magic" and "having a lot of RAM is almost equivalent of SSD" lines.
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post #142 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniflex View Post

I believe it was mentioned couple of times, but not as explicitly as you did. It was more on the lines of "when prefetch does its magic" and "having a lot of RAM is almost equivalent of SSD" lines.

Yo ok , I musta missed them , but come to think about it I'm aware of prefetch , but did not realise that was it in the game scenario , as pre- I gather would imply prefetching the new map already in where it does not do that as one has to load it either manually or automatically , win7 seems to hold it all in memory for even hours? later I've noticed (I've never timed it with clock) .
    
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post #143 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by amdgig View Post

Yo ok , I musta missed them , but come to think about it I'm aware of prefetch , but did not realise that was it in the game scenario , as pre- I gather would imply prefetching the new map already in where it does not do that as one has to load it either manually or automatically , win7 seems to hold it all in memory for even hours? later I've noticed (I've never timed it with clock) .

Well - in essence it is just the "standby" RAM in windows task manager - memory tab. This has two parts - a recently accessed files are kept in RAM until RAM is needed for something else and they get purged and another part is the prefetch algorithm that does statistics on what you are usually doing when on your machine (if enabled, which is on by default) and goes and fetches, say, some BF4 maps into your RAM an hour before you usually start playing these maps as hey, you do this every day. Granted it's drifting a bit offtopic from RAID 0 discussion. It's just one of the reasons why for consumer loads the RAID 0 with SSD's has little benefit.
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post #144 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by Offler View Post

I observed following improvements:
A) Any installation and un-installation is performed much faster. (Including windows patching)
B) Load screens in games are flashing so fast, that I cant read the hints for the game biggrin.gif
C) AV scan is performed much faster
D) Any type of search is performed much faster (without windows indexing).
E) Applications start faster, big files are opened faster.
F) Disk drive is less a burden to OS, since it operates faster.

Many of those are fast enough on single SATA III drives, or in some cases its good to utilize Ramdrive instead of RAID0.

RAID0 SSD benefits to those workloads are mixed or minor really.
A) Any installation and un-installation is performed much faster. (Including windows patching)
This is mostly smaller files (a few MBs or less) and is more about CPU overhead with checking and unpackaging. Little benefit, if any.
B) Load screens in games are flashing so fast, that I cant read the hints for the game biggrin.gif
This is a mix of small and large files sequentially (low-queue depth). There is CPU overhead in unpackaging. Telemetry data was provided earlier in this thread. Little benefit.
C) AV scan is performed much faster
This is highly parallel scanning of lots of small files. High-queue depth but most files are smaller. Some benefit.
D) Any type of search is performed much faster (without windows indexing).
This is highly parallel scanning of lots of file metadata. High-queue depth but tiny data. Little benefit.
E) Applications start faster, big files are opened faster.
This is a mix of small and large files. There is CPU overhead in unpackaging. Little benefit.
F) Disk drive is less a burden to OS, since it operates faster.
OS does not write large files. No benefit.
Once again...
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post #145 of 181
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckieHo View Post

RAID0 SSD benefits to those workloads are mixed or minor really.
A) Any installation and un-installation is performed much faster. (Including windows patching)
This is mostly smaller files (a few MBs or less) and is more about CPU overhead with checking and unpackaging. Little benefit, if any.
B) Load screens in games are flashing so fast, that I cant read the hints for the game biggrin.gif
This is a mix of small and large files sequentially (low-queue depth). There is CPU overhead in unpackaging. Telemetry data was provided earlier in this thread. Little benefit.
C) AV scan is performed much faster
This is highly parallel scanning of lots of small files. High-queue depth but most files are smaller. Some benefit.
D) Any type of search is performed much faster (without windows indexing).
This is highly parallel scanning of lots of file metadata. High-queue depth but tiny data. Little benefit.
E) Applications start faster, big files are opened faster.
This is a mix of small and large files. There is CPU overhead in unpackaging. Little benefit.
F) Disk drive is less a burden to OS, since it operates faster.
OS does not write large files. No benefit.

.After we first had "no benefit to real world performance" we came to little benefit.
And how do you call when somebody overclock i7 3770k from 3,9 to 4,5 ghz I called that also little benefit
And how do you call when somebody gain 8 more frames and he already had 55 with overclocking of graphic card .I call that little benefit.
But I don't see you going there calling GPU overclock "no real world benefit",they will eat you alive.
We are here on 15 page and I still didn't see failure of any Crucial ,any Samsung ,any Plextor,any Sandisk ,any Toshiba ,any Seaate SSD RAID array.
You said OCZ and all others in the beginning putting on market SSD without testing them first,so why you asking from me that I putt them on my list.
post #146 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unit Igor View Post

We are here on 15 page and I still didn't see failure of any Crucial ,any Samsung ,any Plextor,any Sandisk ,any Toshiba ,any Seaate SSD RAID array.

There is this thing called probability. Several posts in this thread, if not most of them, have been talking about these including some of your own where you listed the failure rates of some SSD's. So to see if the failure rates are different from manufacturer published numbers or from the numbers presented here by other people you would need to count all the "positive" and "negative" hits and then do statistics. So, if you have, say 10 "positive" mentions of Samsung SSD'. As a very rough estimate your error at given sample size is sqrt(1/n) where n is the sample size. So with the sample size of 10 you could say that the mentioned Samsung SSD is 100 % reliable with margin of error of approximately 30 %. Getting 1000 people to tell you their Samsung SSD is fine reduces the margin of error to just ~3 % (which is still higher than some of the SSD failure rates you mentioned which were given by manufacturers).

So I'm not sure what you are trying to achieve in there. The thread is far too small to do any truly meaningful statistics even if each of these ~150 posts would be an independent report of the array failing or not. Plus the forums are not the best place to collect that kind of information anyway as by the nature of these people with "nothing wrong" conditions are probably a bit less likely to post about their experience than the people that have had a problem and are still annoyed about it.

Are you trying to claim that manufacturer reported failure rates are wrong? Or are you arguing against math or what?

If the latter then the solution is really simple as there is no arguments really in math as it's perfectly rigid discipline and if something is wrong it can be proven. There is basically only 3 assumptions made in mathematics and everything else is constructed based on these fundamental assumptions. So all one has to do is to show where things went "wrong" - in this case presumably with the probability theory.
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post #147 of 181
Hello.

First timer here and I just had to reply.
I have been only using Raid 0 with my computers for the past 20 years and only had one IBM deskstar 80 meg fail with the click of death.
I have used raid pci addon cards and built in ones on the mother board also software raid(ya ya I know) I will never go back to one
drive ever. If you have lots of important data just use a raid feature with back up smile.gif.

Just my two cents.

Guildcraft
post #148 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckieHo View Post

RAID0 SSD benefits to those workloads are mixed or minor really.
A) Any installation and un-installation is performed much faster. (Including windows patching)
This is mostly smaller files (a few MBs or less) and is more about CPU overhead with checking and unpackaging. Little benefit, if any.
B) Load screens in games are flashing so fast, that I cant read the hints for the game biggrin.gif
This is a mix of small and large files sequentially (low-queue depth). There is CPU overhead in unpackaging. Telemetry data was provided earlier in this thread. Little benefit.
C) AV scan is performed much faster
This is highly parallel scanning of lots of small files. High-queue depth but most files are smaller. Some benefit.
D) Any type of search is performed much faster (without windows indexing).
This is highly parallel scanning of lots of file metadata. High-queue depth but tiny data. Little benefit.
E) Applications start faster, big files are opened faster.
This is a mix of small and large files. There is CPU overhead in unpackaging. Little benefit.
F) Disk drive is less a burden to OS, since it operates faster.
OS does not write large files. No benefit.


a) The best benefit in this case is provided by transition from HDD to SSD. Raid0 (especially more drives, with quality dedicated controller card) may improve some benefit, but most people will be happy with SATA III SSD. Anyway I noticed some increase of speed during installations. "Clock" indicator next to cursor is not displayed constantly, but its frantically flashing.
b) Mostly Big files, but yes - unpackaging and other sorts of processing are needed.
c) Agree.
d) Agree.
e) Most of this type are small files, SSD is the main factor which provided speed-up.
f) OS does a lot of disk accesses, mostly smaller blocks. again its SSD, not RAID which makes the difference.
post #149 of 181
I have very little useful to contribute to this thread other than to say: wat i just read wth.gif

I see two sides to debate... Facts and rambling rolleyes.gif

Mush respect for you guys still trying to keep people informed with actual useful information.
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alt.sanity
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post #150 of 181
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniflex View Post

There is this thing called probability. Several posts in this thread, if not most of them, have been talking about these including some of your own where you listed the failure rates of some SSD's. So to see if the failure rates are different from manufacturer published numbers or from the numbers presented here by other people you would need to count all the "positive" and "negative" hits and then do statistics. So, if you have, say 10 "positive" mentions of Samsung SSD'. As a very rough estimate your error at given sample size is sqrt(1/n) where n is the sample size. So with the sample size of 10 you could say that the mentioned Samsung SSD is 100 % reliable with margin of error of approximately 30 %. Getting 1000 people to tell you their Samsung SSD is fine reduces the margin of error to just ~3 % (which is still higher than some of the SSD failure rates you mentioned which were given by manufacturers).

So I'm not sure what you are trying to achieve in there. The thread is far too small to do any truly meaningful statistics even if each of these ~150 posts would be an independent report of the array failing or not. Plus the forums are not the best place to collect that kind of information anyway as by the nature of these people with "nothing wrong" conditions are probably a bit less likely to post about their experience than the people that have had a problem and are still annoyed about it.

Are you trying to claim that manufacturer reported failure rates are wrong? Or are you arguing against math or what?

If the latter then the solution is really simple as there is no arguments really in math as it's perfectly rigid discipline and if something is wrong it can be proven. There is basically only 3 assumptions made in mathematics and everything else is constructed based on these fundamental assumptions. So all one has to do is to show where things went "wrong" - in this case presumably with the probability theory.
Because this post is touching a subject i will only response to it.
I never denied there is bigger possibility that RAID array will failed because you have two SSD in game.But that SSD can failed even in single setup,so that's way we have back up.
DuckieHo came up with 6% of possibility of failure in RAID and 1% in single set up.Does this 1% mean that we don't have to have back up? I think not.Does that 6% over only 1% means we never have to try RAID?I think not.So my conclusion is that RAID or single you have to have back up ,so losing data have nothing to do with RAID it has only with not responsible user. When it comes to user of RAID,most of them when they come in period of life they want to try RAID ,already have lost one time data and it probably happened to them in single set up(its happened to me).So they are 100% read for unlikely scenario in 2014.
What i also want to say that this all number looks to me stretch, especially when i cant remember when was last time i saw failed SSD or failed RAID array.Maybe those numbers we can apply on enterprise environment where they write on SSD non-stop ,but here on ordinary user ,it doesn't seems so.So i think time has come,when we need to stop scaring users with failure of RAID 0 arrays especially if we talking about this new sata3 generation SSDs.
Maybe somebody didn't notice but this thread start as result of another thread.In that other thread person came for help to set up RAID array.The answer that came from moderator was :You don't need RAID array,because it has no real world benefit. So i ask my self and you all ,are we not here on overclock.net ,are we not in pursuit of those little gain in performance that means world to us.
It seems to me that i missed forum.
16 page and counting.....We are still looking failed array.Maybe i take hammer and crash one of my,they are boring now,three years and no problem..
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