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post #171 of 181
I've stayed out of this discussion (?) simply because IMO the representatives of both sides felt (were) insulted early on, and the topic became a battle of absolutes. That is, RAID 0 is always safe, vs RAID 0 is never safe. I imagine both sides would say that is absolutely not correct... good, and guess what, you actually agree. wink.gif

If I may, let's go back to the beginning. Imagine someone that has never used RAID before, and is really not the type of enthusiast that is not bothered by installing their OS multiple times, or is very dependent on that one, perfect OS and personal software installation, and can't live without it. Or the person that posts a thread in this forum saying, "I got two SSDs now and want to go RAID for Windows on my gaming rig, how do I do that?". Would I suggest multiple SSDs in RAID 0 to those people? No chance, never, no.

Why? Simply because they will not be personally responsible for the potential outcome of a failed RAID array. They'll say, what happened, you said it was Ok. You know all it takes is one BIOS update that resets the SATA mode to something other than RAID, and one failed boot after that, followed by a frenzy of "fixes" that are half random tries of something that they only half read that was the first thing in the list of whatever they Googled.

Personally, I've used several (~5) RAID 0 volumes, of up to four drives, as OS drives for my PCs. Not a high stress environment given my usage, and I use multiple PCs, so the stress on the SSDs is low. Plus I never have them more than 50% full. I have never had one SSD fail in a RAID volume, or as a single drive. But that does not mean it can't happen, or won't happen in the future. I've been lucky, or doing things right, or both.

I'm pretty sure I've used more SSDs than the typical PC user, or even OCN user. But that sample size is still small, very small. I've had success, but I know that my little PC world is just that, little.

Storage drives fail, whether HDD or SSD. When we combine two or more drives into one logical drive, the chances of the logical drive failing are greater, by a factor of two or more. The more drives we add, the greater the chance for failure of the logical drive. This is the main downside of RAID, and particularly RAID 0, where no redundancy exists.

So we can just use two separate SSDs and we're safe... no. Do we ever say that in PCs with multiple drives, three, six, ten, whatever, that our chance of loosing data has increased simply because the number of drives we use is greater? Do we warn them, you've got to many drives, you'll be loosing some data soon. Why is the horror of drive failure seemingly only worrisome when RAID is involved? Why does that cause us to reject RAID 0, while we still have multiple drives storing our data, that we know statically can and will fail?

Of course we'll loose everything if a RAID 0 volume fails, vs only half the amount of the same data spread across two standard drives. But don't we know that from the beginning, that's RAID 0 101 material. Either way without backups, we loose data.

So why increase our risk of loosing data? Why then was RAID created if all it does is increase our chance of data loss? Why do expensive RAID cards that cost more than any PC mother board, and meant for enterprise use exist? Why are they used in an enterprise environment, where statistically the large number of drives in use will create a situation where we know at least a certain number will fail, and potentially more?

It's a calculated risk that is expected and accounted for. But if it was so bad and not cost effective, it wouldn't be used. But it still is used, so it's either worth it, not that bad, or both.

Which brings us right back to the beginning, and IMO both sides are right, except nothing is perfectly right or wrong. Igor, you should have known that some smart people would disagree with you, and it would be very hard (impossible) to tell them they are wrong.
post #172 of 181
I raid my SSDs simply because I actually need sustained transfer speeds for BD ISO to MKV lossless conversions. 550MB/s BD ISO > MKV Lossless is dang nice, doing 35-45GB movies in about 3 minutes. A single SSD can't achieve this unless you set up a 2nd SSD as a destination drive.

Unless you need very fast sustained speeds, there's really no point to Raid 0 SSD in my eyes. 99.9% of users don't deal with 40+GB files on a nearly daily basis, about the only time you'd need this.
Edited by Murlocke - 4/26/14 at 12:15am
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post #173 of 181
Adding that second as scratch you would accomplish the same thing tis always bad for speed to read from and write to the same volume or disk.
 
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post #174 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by GermanyChris View Post

Adding that second as scratch you would accomplish the same thing tis always bad for speed to read from and write to the same volume or disk.

Then i'd have 2 partitions and be wasting more space to ensure both have enough free space to do what I want to do. I get the same speeds reading and writing (at the same time) from my Raid 0 array as I do with 1 drive reading and 1 drive writing separately. It's about 450-460MB/s, with peaks up to 550MB/s, in MakeMKV with both setups.

SSDs don't appear to suffer as bad from reading/writing at the same time. There's not a header having to bounce back and forth.
Edited by Murlocke - 4/26/14 at 12:55am
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post #175 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by Murlocke View Post

SSDs don't appear to suffer as bad from reading/writing at the same time. There's not a header having to bounce back and forth.

Depends on the model. I've noticed significant slowdowns on the 840 500GB when doing simultaneous read/write (same as you, ISO to MKV). Seems to have less of an effect on the 840 EVO 1TB.
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post #176 of 181
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by parsec View Post

Or the person that posts a thread in this forum saying, "I got two SSDs now and want to go RAID for Windows on my gaming rig, how do I do that?". Would I suggest multiple SSDs in RAID 0 to those people? No chance, never, no.

Why? Simply because they will not be personally responsible for the potential outcome of a failed RAID array. They'll say, what happened, you said it was Ok. You know all it takes is one BIOS update that resets the SATA mode to something other than RAID, and one failed boot after that, followed by a frenzy of "fixes" that are half random tries of something that they only half read that was the first thing in the list of whatever they Googled.
So we can just use two separate SSDs and we're safe... no. Do we ever say that in PCs with multiple drives, three, six, ten, whatever, that our chance of loosing data has increased simply because the number of drives we use is greater? Do we warn them, you've got to many drives, you'll be loosing some data soon. Why is the horror of drive failure seemingly only worrisome when RAID is involved? Why does that cause us to reject RAID 0, while we still have multiple drives storing our data, that we know statically can and will fail?
. Which brings us right back to the beginning, and IMO both sides are right, except nothing is perfectly right or wrong. Igor, you should have known that some smart people would disagree with you, and it would be very hard (impossible) to tell them they are wrong.

First parsec let me be open, if you did what DuckieHo did ill be all over you also, no difference, sorry biggrin.gif
Now ,you say you will never suggest somebody to try RAID, but also ,I believe you will never discourage someone to try it.Am I right? Tell me please.
Now ,what is answer to question: Can i RAID two different SSD?
To me normal answer would be, yes you can,and like those two guys said,you will have double speed of slowest one.
And not normal answer to me is: RAID don't have real world benefit ,you will lose data,bla,bla.I heard that thousand time but never saw it happened. I don't say it cant happened ,i say it is to rare in 2014 with such reliable SSD controllers that we don't need to scare people with that.
They also mention some family pictures on RAID array through the thread.Who came up with that crazy tought.RAID is for OS ,programs and games something that you can always download from web.Family photos have place at me on three different HDD.Two of them are external drives never connected to PC.Why ?because its more possibility your data would be killed by thunder then RAID array,belivie me i had even that.
I would always suggest people just to try RAID, because i think all people are smart enough that ,when they come in a stage of trying RAID they already mastered back up ,probably because they already felt loosing of data in single set up, like i did.
I never said SSD would not fail, I said SSD failure rate is so small that it is useless to mention them any more. Samsung rate is 0,28% that is ridicules, there is no PC component that have such lower rate. Maybe only PC cases biggrin.gif
Also i know they are smart people and i know what will happened but i am like revolutionary i want to change things that are old,sorry.You cant link articles from 2011 about SSD and act like it s normal.We didn't have strong and reliable and firmware problems free SSD controllers in 2011.Today is second quarter of 2014.SSD industry is so fast,so growing .
To all those people that have question in there self: To RAID or not to RAID, I have real world answer.
I heard to many times ,there is no real benefit, so i try to revert my PC to single setup. Sorry i try two times but I just couldn't do it.I was next day again IN RAID FIELD.
post #177 of 181
One word about RAID (except for RAID0): redundancy
 
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post #178 of 181
Last chance everyone.

Get it on topic, be respectful and keep it that way or im killing the thread
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post #179 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Xeb View Post

One word about RAID (except for RAID0): redundancy

True. I have started referring to RAID0 as "striping" instead of "RAID0". Saying Redundant Array of Independent Disks Level 0 (which is what the acronym really means) does a disservice to what's actually taking place.
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post #180 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by coachmark2 View Post

True. I have started referring to RAID0 as "striping" instead of "RAID0". Saying Redundant Array of Independent Disks Level 0 (which is what the acronym really means) does a disservice to what's actually taking place.

You can always reference the "0" as "0 redundancy" tongue.gif
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