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Questions about the FX 8350? - Page 8

post #71 of 402
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Pistol View Post

Remember that the new consoles each use 8-core x86 processors. I don't think it's too far fetched that future games will be more highly threaded. Those consoles should teach developers how to create highly optimized and multi-threaded code.

True but then again the Xbox 360 had 6 threads and that didn't stop the PC versions of having poor threading. Even with the consoles now being x86 some devs have mentioned that the jaguar poses an challenge and fixed hardware is always fixed hardware and thus easier load balance. How much of an effect the consoles CPU's will have on PC optimizations still remains to be seen. And even if an game had perfect core scaling an FX-8350 would still not be much faster then an 4670k after all the i5 has 4 core and will also see a boost form better threading.
Edited by Bit_reaper - 4/23/14 at 9:40pm
    
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post #72 of 402
Quote:
Originally Posted by XAceX View Post

I agree that there are only a handful of games that spread out the draw calls, AI, and real-time functions of the render to multiple cores, but this doesn't necessarily mean that games that don't do this are going to run so poorly on the FX-8350 that you have to compare it to a GT640. (No offence intended to gamers who game on the GT640.)

The FX 8350 is approximately close to a Core i5 2500K... which is still an amazing CPU in my opinion.

So why gimp your potential performance by getting the FX...

As for prices, an 8350+M5A99x evo r2+NH-U14 is $363. You can overclock an i5 on a lot of B85 boards, which when paired with the 4670k and the same cooler cost about the same, $360. But, that cooler is a lot more than you need for an i5 (cut 20 USD off), and in quite a few games, you will find the FX chip bottlenecking high end GPUs because its single core performance is pretty awful.

Factoring in the costs for energy and the fact that you need a pretty beefy motherboard to support the 8350, unnless the price of the FX chip drops to around 150 USD, I don't really see any point in taking it over the haswell i5 because despite only having four cores, each core is around twice as powerful as the ones on the 8-core.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Pistol View Post

Remember that the new consoles each use 8-core x86 processors. I don't think it's too far fetched that future games will be more highly threaded. Those consoles should teach developers how to create highly optimized and multi-threaded code.

Even running 8 threads, the i5 performs similarly to the FX at worst.
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post #73 of 402
Quote:
Originally Posted by orlfman View Post

When one is on a budget where even saving $30 - $40 matters because that extra money can go to a better cooler to allow overclocking or something else. I went with my 8350 over a 4670k because, pairing it with a similar motherboard, I saved $70... which allowed me to get a better gpu. If had gone with the 4670K I would of been stuck on stock cooling and a weaker gpu. Not all of else ooze money like crazy and can't always save every single penny we get because of the situations where in.

Getting that CPU that will play everything out there at max settings with acceptable frame rates and saving money is well worth it.

The problem is that the FX-8350 doesn't save $30-40 all things considered.

Your build is a perfect example of why the FX-8350 isn't a good value CPU for gaming, lets explore why:

The FX-8350 has the same binning quality as an FX-6300 (I can explain this if you're interested), so once the overclocking starts, there's no advantage in terms of overclocking potential on average. The only advantage is the additional module. The FX-8350 costs 66% more than the FX-6300, yet only delivers 33% more computing resources.

The i7-4770K, is normally priced ~40% higher than the i5-4670K, and offers about the same ~33% improvement in parallelism over the i5-4670K that the FX-8350 does over the FX-6300. Common practice is to recommend the i5 over the i7 because the additional ~33% parallelism afforded by the i7 does not translate to much gaming performance since most game engines don't scale into the additional parallelism very well (if at all). If good practice is to recommend AGAINST spending an additional 40% on the CPU for 33% more performance-through-parallelism on the Intel side when value is a high priority, why would it be good practice to recommend spending 66% more for 33% more performance-through-parallelism on the AMD side? The answer, is that the FX-8350 represents an even poorer value over the FX-6300, than the i7 does over the i5 for gaming, yet for some reason, people consider the FX-8350 to be a good value gaming chip. This baffles me.

Clock for clock, a non-hyperthreaded haswell core delivers the same computing performance as an entire piledriver module combined in most workloads. By consolidating that performance into half as many cores, the i5-4670K offers substantially higher per-thread performance, which, unlike additional performance-through-parallelism, scales proportionally in CPU bound real-time workloads. The FX-8350 costs 15% less than the i5-4670K (typically, though right now it's only $10 cheaper), yet performs up to 40% worse in CPU bound real-time workloads. How does that make the FX-8350 a better value? It doesn't.

When switching from the FX-8350 to the i5-4670K, there are numerous Z87 boards to choose from in the same price class as the value conscious enthusiast 990X EVO, 990FX killer, and 990FX UD3. Motherboard price is a wash between these platforms. For example, the popular Z87 Killer, Extreme4, Z87-A, Z87-G55, Z87X-D3H, Z87X-HD3, all comparable in many ways. I would argue that some of those Z87 boards are actually MORE feature rich for the money than the 990X EVO.

When switching from an overclocked FX-8350, to an overclocked i5-4670K, we can subtract up to ~150W (or more) from the power supply sizing all other things being equal and maintain the same power available for the rest of the system. This may be hard to believe so I'm going to back this up with some evidence: http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/display/core-i5-4670k-4670-4570-4430_7.html
Note, the result there was measured after the PSU, so the 990FX+FX-8350 system under load at stock clocks, dissipates 95W more than the Z87+i5-4670K. This is partly because the 990FX chip-set has a higher TDP than the Z87 chip-set (by about 15W), but the main difference comes from the CPUs themselves and the differences in VRM efficiency at these significantly different loads. The real-world gap in CPU power dissipation is much wider than the TDP ratings might suggest. In fact, the i5-4670K dissipates closer to 70W at-the-chip under full load at stock clocks, while the FX-8350 dissipates closer to 140W at-the-chip under full load. When we overclock, the gap opens up much wider. The FX-8350 soars well over 200W when overclocked. (~220W @ 4.7ghz is common, and 250W+ if we push for 5GHZ+). CPU VRMs on the overclocked 990FX platform are forced to deliver up to ~15-20A per phase, which forces their efficiency downward to ~80-85%. On the Z87 platform, many overclocking friendly boards are designed such that they achieve peak efficiency at overclocked power levels of ~90% (~10A per phase). The i5-4670K is usually limited to ~125W@ ~4.5ghz by the IHS, so this is the practical stopping point for overclocking.
Power consumptions breakdown:
Z87 (5W) + i5-4570K @ ~4.5GHZ (~125W) + VRM losses (15W) = 145W
990FX (20W) + FX-8350 @ ~4.7GHZ (~220W) + VRM losses (50W) = 290W

This difference in power dissipation can have an impact on the required investment in CPU cooling and PSU size, such that the difference in the price of the CPUs themselves, is generally washed out, if not effectively reversed. The FX-8350 requires ~240mm radiators or large double tower heatpipe cooler to hit an overclock that will have any potential to give it any edge over the i5 (unfortunately, any edge it gains won't be particularly useful for real-time workloads like games so this may prove to be a moot effort regardless). Remember, the performance of a PD module is about the same as a non-hyper-threaded haswell core, so if we don't overclock the 8350 higher than the i5, then we've given up the only performance advantage the 8350 can ever have in those unusually parallel workloads. Meanwhile, the i5-4670K isn't going to get much past ~4.5ghz whether we spend $30 or $100 on a CPU cooler due to the limits of the IHS, and since the dissipation is so much lower, a basic single tower direct touch heatpipe cooler, or value oriented 120mm rad, is all that is required to run at ~4.5ghz. If we put a budget (<$50) CPU cooler on the FX-8350, it won't go past ~4.5ghz anyway, which basically sets it up to only ever match the i5 in non-real-time workloads that can saturate the execution resources absolutely. In all other workloads, the 4670K performs better. Then there's the issue of PSU sizing. The 100-200W larger PSU size required to implement the overclocked FX-8350, easily eclipses the difference in the price of these CPUs by itself. The i5-4670K + 212 EVO + 650W PSU will cost less than the FX-8350 + H100i + 850W PSU, offers very similar available power headroom for GPUs, and performs better in most games, with the "worst" performance of the i5 matching the 8350's best.

The same differences in compute efficiency that make Piledriver based opterons obsolete in a world of modern 22nm Xeons in the professional world due to implementation costs, come back to bite for value oriented performance tuners as well. The only way for AMD to be competitive, is to offer chips at prices that leave enough budget in place to pay for the higher implementation costs associated with the higher power dissipation. The FX-6300 in the $110-120 range accomplishes this very well, as it has enough unused "budget" to go toe to toe (+/-20% depending on workload) with locked i5 chips in the ~$180 price class. If the FX-8320 were dropped to ~$140 MSRP, and the FX-8350 were dropped to ~$160 MSRP, then it would actually be possible to implement these chips at price points that would be more legitimate in terms of their performance in real world conditions. Paying $200 for an FX-8350 in a world where we can get an FX-6300 for $120, would be like paying $400 for the i7-4770K in a world where we can buy the i5-4670K for $240.

Regards,
Eric
Edited by mdocod - 4/24/14 at 12:15am
     
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post #74 of 402
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bit_reaper View Post

True but then again the Xbox 360 had 6 threads and that didn't stop the PC versions of having poor threading. Even with the consoles now being x86 some devs have mentioned that the jaguar poses an challenge and fixed hardware is always fixed hardware and thus easier load balance. How much of an effect the consoles CPU's will have on PC optimizations still remains to be seen. And even if an game had perfect core scaling an FX-8350 would still not be much faster then an 4670k after all the i5 has 4 core and will also see a boost form better threading.
The Xbox 360 was using a PowerPC processor and everything had to be ported to run on an x86 PC. PPC and x86 architecture are so different that it's no wonder that porting console games from the 360 to the PC resulted in very poor optimization. As far as that goes, look at Skyrim. They ported it to the PC, and translated all of the floating-point subroutines into x87 code--something no competent software developer would have done in the last decade when writing floating-point routines for x86 natively.

Jaguar is a challenge for a lazy developer who wants to pretend it's 2005 and we're all still running single-core, single-thread CPU's. People like that should go away and write match-3 games for Android or something like that.
     
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post #75 of 402
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdocod View Post

The problem is that the FX-8350 doesn't save $30-40 all things considered.

When switching from the FX-8350 to the i5-4670K, there are numerous Z87 boards to choose from in the same price class as the value conscious enthusiast 990X EVO, 990FX killer, and 990FX UD3. Motherboard price is a wash between these platforms. For example, the popular Z87 Killer, Extreme4, Z87-A, Z87-G55, Z87X-D3H, Z87X-HD3, all comparable in many ways. I would argue that some of those Z87 boards are actually MORE feature rich for the money than the 990X EVO.

When switching from an overclocked FX-8350, to an overclocked i5-4670K, we can subtract up to ~150W (or more) from the power supply sizing all other things being equal and maintain the same power available for the rest of the system. This may be hard to believe so I'm going to back this up with some evidence: http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/display/core-i5-4670k-4670-4570-4430_7.html
Note, the result there was measured after the PSU, so the 990FX+FX-8350 system under load at stock clocks, dissipates 95W more than the Z87+i5-4670K. This is partly because the 990FX chip-set has a higher TDP than the Z87 chip-set (by about 15W), but the main difference comes from the CPUs themselves and the differences in VRM efficiency at these significantly different loads. The real-world gap in CPU power dissipation is much wider than the TDP ratings might suggest. In fact, the i5-4670K dissipates closer to 70W at-the-chip under full load at stock clocks, while the FX-8350 dissipates closer to 140W at-the-chip under full load. When we overclock, the gap opens up much wider. The FX-8350 soars well over 200W when overclocked. (~220W @ 4.7ghz is common, and 250W+ if we push for 5GHZ+). CPU VRMs on the overclocked 990FX platform are forced to deliver up to ~15-20A per phase, which forces their efficiency downward to ~80-85%. On the Z87 platform, many overclocking friendly boards are designed such that they achieve peak efficiency at overclocked power levels of ~90% (~10A per phase). The i5-4670K is usually limited to ~125W@ ~4.5ghz by the IHS, so this is the practical stopping point for overclocking.
Power consumptions breakdown:
Z87 (5W) + i5-4570K @ ~4.5GHZ (~125W) + VRM losses (15W) = 145W
990FX (20W) + FX-8350 @ ~4.7GHZ (~220W) + VRM losses (50W) = 290W

This difference in power dissipation can have an impact on the required investment in CPU cooling and PSU size, such that the difference in the price of the CPUs themselves, is generally washed out, if not effectively reversed. The FX-8350 requires ~240mm radiators or large double tower heatpipe cooler to hit an overclock that will have any potential to give it any edge over the i5 (unfortunately, any edge it gains won't be particularly useful for real-time workloads like games so this may prove to be a moot effort regardless). Remember, the performance of a PD module is about the same as a non-hyper-threaded haswell core, so if we don't overclock the 8350 higher than the i5, then we've given up the only performance advantage the 8350 can ever have in those unusually parallel workloads. Meanwhile, the i5-4670K isn't going to get much past ~4.5ghz whether we spend $30 or $100 on a CPU cooler due to the limits of the IHS, and since the dissipation is so much lower, a basic single tower direct touch heatpipe cooler, or value oriented 120mm rad, is all that is required to run at ~4.5ghz. If we put a budget (<$50) CPU cooler on the FX-8350, it won't go past ~4.5ghz anyway, which basically sets it up to only ever match the i5 in non-real-time workloads that can saturate the execution resources absolutely. In all other workloads, the 4670K performs better. Then there's the issue of PSU sizing. The 100-200W larger PSU size required to implement the overclocked FX-8350, easily eclipses the difference in the price of these CPUs by itself. The i5-4670K + 212 EVO + 650W PSU will cost less than the FX-8350 + H100i + 850W PSU, offers very similar available power headroom for GPUs, and performs better in most games, with the "worst" performance of the i5 matching the 8350's best.

The reality is that you don't even need a Z87 board for a haswell chip, even if you want to overclock. The G 1 Sniper B5, B85 Killer, and B85 gaming are perfect examples of budget boards to run overclocked i5 and i7 CPUs on. At around the $90 mark they are quite a bit cheaper than a lot of Z87 boards.

I do think that i5s are binned slightly worse than the i7s, with the stock IHS/TIM reviews seem to get around 200MHz hicgher clocks on the i7.
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post #76 of 402
hello,
just got my hands on the 8350, seems the load line setting has changed with this chip.
Quote:
Originally Posted by trailer park boy View Post

yes its a great gaming chip

the 8350 should overclock good,,,but every chip is different

just had a quick think, and no, every psu is different would be more like it.
Edited by MrPerforations - 4/24/14 at 2:25am
    
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post #77 of 402
Ever hear of Crysis? BSI is on the old Unreal3 engine and only uses 4 cores. The upcoming Unreal 4 engine should do better. Crytek is officially onboard with Mantle and their new games coming out this year will have it.
There is no reason to buy intel and every reason to buy AMD as AMD offers the better path to the future.
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Junkyard Dog
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Blackie
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AMD Ryzen 1700 Biostar X370 GT7 Sapphire Nitro Fury G. Skill Ripjaws ddr4 3200 16 GB 4x4 
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Samsung 850 EVO 500gb SSD Western Digital 500gb  Memorex Lightscribe dvd Thermalright Silver Arrow IB-E Extreme 
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Win 10 64bit Pixio 27" 1440P yes Seasonic 850 watt  
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Silverstone Redline RL05 Evoluent vertical mouse yes Creative X-FI  
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Sennheiser headphones 
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AMD FX8370 @ 5 ghz ASUS Sabertooth Sapphire Fury G Skill F3-14900CL9Q-16GBXL 
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Western Digital Samsung 850 EVO Memorex Lightscribe dvd Thermalright Silver Arrow IB-E Extreme 
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Win X 64 bit Pixio 27" 1440P  yes Seasonic SS-850KM Active PFC F3 
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post #78 of 402
Quote:
Originally Posted by miklkit View Post

Ever hear of Crysis? BSI is on the old Unreal3 engine and only uses 4 cores. The upcoming Unreal 4 engine should do better. Crytek is officially onboard with Mantle and their new games coming out this year will have it.
There is no reason to buy intel and every reason to buy AMD as AMD offers the better path to the future.

Looks like we have someone who didn't read the above posts here...

A Haswell core has the same performance as a PD module in many cases, so 4 cores is pretty much the performance of 4 modules, except you can get a cheaper motherboard, cooler, and PSU, and save on your power bill...

Here, have the link for the full summary for free.
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Luthien
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post #79 of 402
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_2I_VujSH0

Thats me getting a score of 4707 on firestrike extreme, while buffering 3 youtube videos and running an antivirus scan simultaneously. It gets above 6000 under better conditions http://www.3dmark.com/fs/2054345

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7v2FKquVlo

Mechwarrior online, 1 7950 at stock clocks (925/1250), normal quality, 70-100 frames a second, no lag,



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfdACJYl9Ko

Star Craft 2, 1 7950 at stock clocks, high quality, 100-120 frames a second, no lag



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPq706IU8hk

Tomb Raider, 1 7950 at stock clocks, normal quality, 100-130 frames a second, no lag.


You can not POSSIBLY refute all this evidence and still insist that this processor is completely worthless for gaming or general use. Well I mean you -can-, but you'd look like a troll. granted, this is a 9370 not an 8350, its also got an h80i on it and it's at 5.0Ghz, however an 8350 is perfectly capable of the same performance.

For the record, Battlefield 4, Crysis 1,2 and 3, Far Cry 3, Civilization 5, Cities XL, Borderlands 2, Path of Exile, Sleeping Dogs, -ALL- run well above 60 frames a second with 1 gpu at stock clocks or 2 gpu's overclocked. No lag, no stuttering. Nothing. an intel chip is probably capable of the same performance, with less cost, or less time invested. Thats fine. People need to stop acting like amd chips are utter trash, they simply aren't. They're not as good as intel's at most things, but thats fine. They don't have to be. A gas guzzling classic mustang will get you anywhere a flex fuel porsche will. PERIOD.
post #80 of 402
The reason I feel there is no reason to buy an AMD chip is not because they are necessarily bad, but they cost more to do the same.
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Luthien
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