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[VC] NVIDIA preparing Maxwell GM204 and Kepler GK210 GPUs - Page 5

post #41 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by tpi2007 View Post

With 8 Megabytes of L2 cache (which means less need for GDDR5 memory bandwidth), more than 2800 Maxwell Cuda cores, and a die size of more than 500 mm2, it's very possible they can make something between 19% and 35% faster than the 780 Ti, still on 28nm.

If they go the same route as the GTX 680, which at launch was only 19% faster (26% now) than the GTX 580, they can always get away with it. CPUs don't get this kind of yearly improvement and they still sell. Also, these will also probably fit into the first generation Maxwell, the second one on a new process will be faster. They already put the GTX 750 Ti and GTX 750 under the first generation Maxwell umbrella, there has to be a reason for that, the question is how many cards will go under that umbrella. With manufacturing processes having to last longer and longer, it wouldn't surprise me to see diminishing gains if you are waiting for yearly improvements. Every two years is going to become the norm.

Thing is we're still talking of a tiny chip like the 750ti and we're imagining it on the scale of the gigantic GK110. Chances are they can't do it. Because if they could chances are AMD would too, and probably NVIDIA would too earlier.

Are they really such bad designers that they missed such a huge performance increase?

It's possible, but very, very unlikely.
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post #42 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by tpi2007 View Post

With 8 Megabytes of L2 cache (which means less need for GDDR5 memory bandwidth), more than 2800 Maxwell Cuda cores, and a die size of more than 500 mm2, it's very possible they can make something between 19% and 35% faster than the 780 Ti, still on 28nm.

If they go the same route as the GTX 680, which at launch was only 19% faster (26% now) than the GTX 580, they can always get away with it. CPUs don't get this kind of yearly improvement and they still sell. Also, these will also probably fit into the first generation Maxwell, the second one on a new process will be faster. They already put the GTX 750 Ti and GTX 750 under the first generation Maxwell umbrella, there has to be a reason for that, the question is how many cards will go under that umbrella. With manufacturing processes having to last longer and longer, it wouldn't surprise me to see diminishing gains if you are waiting for yearly improvements. Every two years is going to become the norm.
even it scale perfectly there is no way a 256bit 7gbps GM204 will beat 780Ti, unless its GPU clock at 1.3Ghz/1.4Ghz. Lets dont forget we still got a bunch of aftermarket 780Ti that is already @ 1Ghz out of box which is a pretty fast chip.

basically it is either these case
1. Rebrand the binned GK110/GK210 into GTX880/870 with 890 as cheaper dual chip card.
2. Make GM210 @ 28nm which is going to be 20-35% faster than 780Ti
3. Make 20nm GM104 call it GTX880 @ 1.3-1.4GHz (this will be least possible due to 20nm immaturity)

I wouldnt be surprise they took the option 1 or option 3 then later remake GM210 in 20nm, release @ 2015 call it GTX980/970 with everything downwards re-brand = same as how AMD did on their HD7000 card. The old flagship become the mainstream card. Pascal will come in 2016 as a true successor.
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post #43 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by fateswarm View Post

Thing is we're still talking of a tiny chip like the 750ti and we're imagining it on the scale of the gigantic GK110. Chances are they can't do it. Because if they could chances are AMD would too, and probably NVIDIA would too earlier.

Are they really such bad designers that they missed such a huge performance increase?

It's possible, but very, very unlikely.

Oh, so now its possible, but not too long ago it was unthinkable to see maxwell on 28nm, right?

Jeeeez. Is it that hard to understand that NVIDIA might be able to do something that AMD can't?! Can you not check prior architectures and check that die size was different when comparing NVIDIA vs AMD (whereas performance was similar)?

Architectures DO matter, and A LOT. Or you think that Intel has beaten the crap out of AMD just because they had a better litography process? Yes, they did have better litography... but their architecture was miles, miles ahead.

So, please, don't be that narrow-minded. Every single litography node will get used more than prior because of diminishing returns. As they get smaller, they get more expensive, and the benefits aren't as obvious as before. And I'm not saying that we won't see 20nm this year (we just might), but they didn't release Maxwell (yes, a low-end one at that, but new architecture) for nothing, but (huge IMO here) as a means to test how well their new arch will perform on current node.

If not, why would you release a new arch on the current node, when you know full well you will have to translate that same design onto the new node? It makes no damn sense, specially if you consider the huge cost of tape-out, the low to no return when you have a mature design onto a not-so-big die, and the other costs of adapting a new arch to the current node... information and know-how you won't be able to use on the new nodes at all.

Or... maybe 20nm is so damn expensive that they will only use it on the high-end models and release everything else on 28nm. Either way, we will see a lot more Maxwell on 28nm.
Edited by prava - 4/18/14 at 7:57pm
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post #44 of 109
Opens thread..sees 28nm..closes thread
post #45 of 109
Exactly, the architecture is very important. For example with the current Maxwell chips Nvidia managed to save power by doing away with one memory channel (when compared to the GTX 650 Ti Boost) or in general (comparing the GTX 750 to the GTX 650 Ti) by reducing the amount of I/O outside the chip, while at the same time improving or retaining the same performance bracket by increasing the L2 cache 8 fold.

The GTX 750 Ti is almost 15% faster than the R7 260X. The first doesn't need external power connectors and has a 60w TDP, the second needs a 6-pin connector and has a 115w TDP, that is almost twice as much. In both cases we are talking about GPUs with 2 GB of GGDR5 VRAM on a 128-bit memory bus and 16 ROPs, both on 28nm.

 
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post #46 of 109
Wow.. might just buy 2 titan blacks and WC them and call it a day.
780ti would be nice but 3gb vram wont hold out for long. And I cant wait another 12 months better cards the wait never stops
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post #47 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by tpi2007 View Post

Exactly, the architecture is very important. For example with the current Maxwell chips Nvidia managed to save power by doing away with one memory channel (when compared to the GTX 650 Ti Boost) or in general (comparing the GTX 750 to the GTX 650 Ti) by reducing the amount of I/O outside the chip, while at the same time improving or retaining the same performance bracket by increasing the L2 cache 8 fold.

The GTX 750 Ti is almost 15% faster than the R7 260X. The first doesn't need external power connectors and has a 60w TDP, the second needs a 6-pin connector and has a 115w TDP, that is almost twice as much. In both cases we are talking about GPUs with 2 GB of GGDR5 VRAM on a 128-bit memory bus and 16 ROPs, both on 28nm.

the L2 cache, does helps a lot, but if u look at the 780Ti, it is 250-260% of 750Ti. Double everything the 750ti has + 256bit, we are still gonna fall short of 780Ti speed. thumb.gif Nvidia need a GM210 to beat its own GK110 if they are to use only 28nm.
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post #48 of 109
GTX 880 Maxwell, despite 256bit would an increase in bandwidth compared 750Ti, well over twice:

"750ti = 128bit + GDDR5 @ 5400MHz / 86GB bandwidth
GTX880 = 256bit + GDDR5 @ 7400MHz (or 7800MHz?) / 238GB bandwidth "

an increase of 300/400% the number of shaders

GTX 750Ti = 640cc
GTX 880 = 2560cc (or 3200cc?)

an increase of 100% for the ROPs

GTX750Ti = 16ROPs
GTX880 = 32ROPs (or 40ROPs?)

+
improvements to the architecture.

for me it may be faster than the GTX 780Ti
Edited by NABBO - 4/19/14 at 12:23am
post #49 of 109
it is normal that a chip "performance", beating the previous high-end architecture. "

example:

GF114 (GTX560Ti 256bit) vs. GT200 (GTX 280-285 512bit)

or

GK104 (GTX680/770 256bit) vs. GF110 (GTX 580 384bit)
post #50 of 109
Nvidia milking it like there's no milk tomorrow biggrin.gif
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