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[pcper] AMD Mantle and NVIDIA 337.50 Scaling Demonstrated with Star Swarm on AM1

post #1 of 48
Thread Starter 
Quote:
On this image you can see how each platform with each graphics card is able to scale with the software changes made with Mantle and with the 337.50 driver. In the red bar we have results from the 335.23 NVIDIA driver and the 14.3 Catalyst driver running in DirectX mode while the blue represents the Mantle and 337.50 scores.

Impressively, the Radeon R7 260X sees a performance improvement of 91% by enabling the Mantle version of Star Swarm on the lower end Athlon 5350 APU. On that same system, NVIDIA's GeForce GTX 750 Ti is able to achieve a 49% frame rate increase while continuing to use DirectX 11 and improving driver efficiency. On the high end platform with the Core i7-3960X, the R7 260X GPU improves by just 27% from enabling Mantle; the GTX 750 Ti scales by 21%.

Source

I'd personally like to see the tests also done using higher end GPUs.
 
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post #2 of 48
y not testing real games?
post #3 of 48
Thread Starter 
btw I'd be interested in knowing what sort of scenarios they ran for these tests and how many times did they repeat them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ha-Nocri View Post

y not testing real games?

Probably because it was just a quick test they thought of while running tests for the AM1 platform.

Mantle games and apps have been tested by review sites and people pretty extensively however I definitely wouldn't mind a real in-depth look at 337.50 and mantle in BF4 multi, thief and SS using high end hardware. No one has done that yet.

Different hardware, and possibly drivers from 780Ti launch or so would be interesting because personally in extreme cases I've seen over 100% better results in SS for 337.50.
 
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post #4 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post


I'd personally like to see the tests also done using higher end GPUs.

For the very first time I agree with you.

Reasons why:
http://www.overclock.net/t/1483097/guide-things-you-want-to-know-about-mantle
Quote:
Originally Posted by "Alatar 
Mantle games and apps have been tested by review sites and people pretty extensively however I definitely wouldn't mind a real in-depth look at 337.50 and mantle in BF4 multi, thief and SS using high end hardware. No one has done that yet.

Most of the reviews picked high details and tested it like this, on diffferent configurations. Mostly the tests of Mantle were reaching the point where GPU was bottleneck and then reviewer claimed "its not worth - only 5% more FPS"... In scenario when GPU is overloaded, you cant expect more FPS.

Edit:
Anyways I would stay away from Starswarm, and use game benchmarks instead.
Edited by Offler - 4/22/14 at 3:56am
post #5 of 48
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Offler View Post


Most of the reviews picked high details and tested it like this, on diffferent configurations. Mostly the tests of Mantle were reaching the point where GPU was bottleneck and then reviewer claimed "its not worth - only 5% more FPS"...

There were also tons of mantle results from lower end CPUs, sometimes pointless configs like 7850K + 290X.

What I really want to see is high end GPU (preferably OC'd) + OC'd high end CPU. And then running the tests in scenarios that are usually CPU limited. We know that whatever the way you use to lower CPU overhead (mantle or extra drivers or whatever) isn't really going to do anything in completely GPU bound situations so testing those is mostly a moot point.

Basically I couldn't care less about CPU bottlenecks created by hardware choices, I want to see enthusiast rigs in software situations where the CPU can possibly be an issue.
 
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post #6 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post

There were also tons of mantle results from lower end CPUs, sometimes pointless configs like 7850K + 290X.

What I really want to see is high end GPU (preferably OC'd) + OC'd high end CPU. And then running the tests in scenarios that are usually CPU limited. We know that whatever the way you use to lower CPU overhead (mantle or extra drivers or whatever) isn't really going to do anything in completely GPU bound situations so testing those is mostly a moot point.

Basically I couldn't care less about CPU bottlenecks created by hardware choices, I want to see enthusiast rigs in software situations where the CPU can possibly be an issue.

7850k + 290x can theoretically (and according my tests with Thief) archieve highest percentual ratio in comparing DirectX and Mantle, simply because its really low probability of hitting GPU limit. But really... who would build such system?

GPU bound... You see I had (until recently) Xeon X3360 @ 3400Mhz (similar to Q9550). Now when I tried Mantle I can say, that CPU upgrade is not needed - Mantle and GPU upgrade will be able to fill the need for new CPU. My newer Phenom II x6 @ 3600Mhz. Almost same scenario. When I set SSAO to Low FPS jumps from 47 to 63, but as a sideeffect CPU utilization went up too.

Its not really only GPU bound situation, but also matter of efficiency. If game can generate up to 60 FPS, while GPU is used to 100% and CPU less than 30% just tell me... Why to buy new CPU? Same scenario, but this time with mantle, and CPU utilization is over 70%, GPU is still used to 100%, but FPS is 100...

This describes how Mantle works for me. Less details/lower GPU utilization - more FPS/CPU utilization at the same time. DirectX simply was not able to deliver more FPS regardless of lowering details.
post #7 of 48
So a $150 graphics card using DX is faster than a $120 graphics card using Mantle when using a $1000 CPU.

The $120 card is faster than the $150 card when the $120 card is using Mantle on a low end CPU.

I'm glad you cleared this up. Hopefully AMD can continue to offer faster performance while costing 25% less. It just seems so much more likely to pair a $120 graphics card with a low end CPU than with a $1000 CPU.

It looks like a win in my book. 260x gets creamed when there is no CPU bottleneck (because it's a lower tier chip), yet it ends up competitive with a more expensive chip when you shift the bottleneck to CPU.

So, the smartest thing to do from this review is to spend less on CPU and more on an AMD GPU for Mantle.

For reference, the $120 Nvidia GPU is the plain old GTX 750, which is about 20% slower than GTX 750 Ti.

But I think the most humorous part of this is that GTX 750 Ti was beating 260x in Directx only with Kabini, but with the new Nvidia drivers and Mantle, the 750 Ti actually loses. So it went from winning to losing thanks to Mantle.

Also, as a side note, 260x improvement with Mantle: 27% GTX 750 Ti improvement with new drivers 21%.
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post #8 of 48
It does better in actual games when comparing non mantle. The recent pcper review shows that.
The cheap kabini platform does unexpectedly well.
post #9 of 48
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdlvx View Post

So a $150 graphics card using DX is faster than a $120 graphics card using Mantle when using a $1000 CPU.

The 750Ti is the faster card on average when there's no CPU bottleneck.

You can make a 290X look like a bad deal if you use a pentium 4 to bench. This shouldn't be news to anyone.
Quote:
The $120 card is faster than the $150 card when the $120 card is using Mantle on a low end CPU.

I'm glad you cleared this up. Hopefully AMD can continue to offer faster performance while costing 25% less. It just seems so much more likely to pair a $120 graphics card with a low end CPU than with a $1000 CPU.

It looks like a win in my book. 260x gets creamed when there is no CPU bottleneck (because it's a lower tier chip), yet it ends up competitive with a more expensive chip when you shift the bottleneck to CPU.

So, the smartest thing to do from this review is to spend less on CPU and more on an AMD GPU for Mantle.

For reference, the $120 Nvidia GPU is the plain old GTX 750, which is about 20% slower than GTX 750 Ti.

But I think the most humorous part of this is that GTX 750 Ti was beating 260x in Directx only with Kabini, but with the new Nvidia drivers and Mantle, the 750 Ti actually loses. So it went from winning to losing thanks to Mantle.

Also, as a side note, 260x improvement with Mantle: 27% GTX 750 Ti improvement with new drivers 21%.

And this would be all well and good if we had more than 2 mantle games. But we don't.

Which one would you rather have, improvements in all DX11 games, or a bit more improvement but that's limited to 2 games?

Fact of the matter is that Nvidia is coming quite close to mantle's improvements but they're doing it with DX11 so the list of games that support the improvements right now is probably 10x as large as mantle's is ever going to be.

So yeah, if we played Star Swarm for entertainment you might be right. But since I doubt anyone actually does that you need to look at the big picture if you're buying a GPU.
Quote:
Originally Posted by maarten12100 View Post

It does better in actual games when comparing non mantle. The recent pcper review shows that.
The cheap kabini platform does unexpectedly well.

And you're still better off buying FM2+ or H81 for gaming because those are better for the money.

Yes kabini can game, is it a good price/perf option though? No.
 
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post #10 of 48
I'd also like to see some measurement and analysis of CPU utilization with R337.50 vs the previous WHQL. Since they are both servicing the same API, R337.50 must somehow be executing those calls more quickly. Is it achieving better threading? Or is there something tricky under the hood, like caching intermediate results in anticipation of future API calls with similar data?
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