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[pcper] AMD Mantle and NVIDIA 337.50 Scaling Demonstrated with Star Swarm on AM1 - Page 3

post #21 of 48
From my personal experience with the 337.50 drivers I did get a boost. I was disappointed because the boost came out as a result of an increase in CPU utilization. Now, before someone says that my GPU was not at 100% in few games that I benched before the 337.50 drivers, let me tell you that it was. So on the GPU side my usage remained the same but my CPU usage increased which for me resulted in roughly a 10% performance gain.

In terms of prices the R7 265 is priced the same as the Gtx 750Ti and would easily defeat it any day, but I'm not going there as that's not the point of this thread.
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post #22 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by jason387 View Post

From my personal experience with the 337.50 drivers I did get a boost. I was disappointed because the boost came out as a result of an increase in CPU utilization. Now, before someone says that my GPU was not at 100% in few games that I benched before the 337.50 drivers, let me tell you that it was. So on the GPU side my usage remained the same but my CPU usage increased which for me resulted in roughly a 10% performance gain.

In terms of prices the R7 265 is priced the same as the Gtx 750Ti and would easily defeat it any day, but I'm not going there as that's not the point of this thread.

Its good when your CPU utilization went UP and FPS went up at the same time. It means that some code is much more optimized.
post #23 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by jason387 View Post

From my personal experience with the 337.50 drivers I did get a boost. I was disappointed because the boost came out as a result of an increase in CPU utilization. Now, before someone says that my GPU was not at 100% in few games that I benched before the 337.50 drivers, let me tell you that it was. So on the GPU side my usage remained the same but my CPU usage increased which for me resulted in roughly a 10% performance gain.

In terms of prices the R7 265 is priced the same as the Gtx 750Ti and would easily defeat it any day, but I'm not going there as that's not the point of this thread.

Don't blame CPU usage easily if you only look at a task manager overal (or any other overall). Most games are "left" to reach 100% anyway if they are not on VSync because the main thread governing the FPS is left with no limitations (it's practically a while(1) if you know coding). In any case, those new methods alleviating draw calls from being done by the CPU are basically lowering the load of the CPU needed by the game. So whatever the meters say, they should be lowering the usage, or more accurately, the need of the CPU being loaded.
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post #24 of 48
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdlvx View Post

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)



I don't know why you are so compelled to defend these drivers in the face of so much conflicting evidence.

And as for the prices, I took the lowest prices I could find on Newegg. I always do that when comparing prices because it's only fair to compare prices between the same retailer. It's too easy to fudge numbers to push an agenda when you start grabbing tons of different stores.

You do know that grabbing tons of different stories to fudge numbers is exactly what that extremetech article is doing? It's the same as grabbing all 0% increase mantle graphs you can find and then copy pasting them into a single article.

Because it's almost as if you only looked at that single article (that was linked on SA) and made a conclusion. People who've actually looked into the drivers know that the article is garbage.

It's easy to pull the same stunt on mantle as that article did for 337.50. However it's even easier for 337.50 because it supports all DX11 games, most of which are quite easy to make GPU bottlenecked.

Take something like this for example:



Or maybe this:



Just as easy to cherry pick.

If you want tons of evidence people have tons of benches up here:

http://www.overclock.net/t/1479451/various-geforce-337-50-wonder-driver-beta-release

Example of reviews that do show good gains:

http://www.overclock.net/t/1480050/battlefield-4-benchmarks-ht-on-vs-off-win8-1-vs-win7-new-nvidia-337-50-drivers
http://www.forum-3dcenter.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=10170731&postcount=24
http://www.guru3d.com/news_story/geforce_337_50_beta_sli_performance_benchmarks.html

The performance increases with these drivers come from the same issues as they do with mantle. If you have a game/situation with those issues you will see gains, if not, then you wont. The same as mantle

Only significant difference for the user is that mantle is a bit more efficient but supports only 2 titles at the moment while 337.50 isn't quite as efficient but the improvements are DX11 wide.


And for the 750Ti vs. 260X, yeah I looked at newegg as well, $130 for 260X 2GB and $150 for 750Ti 2GB. $10 less for both if you include rebates.
Edited by Alatar - 4/22/14 at 5:52am
 
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post #25 of 48
There was NO Thief Mantle review which was completely OK.

If we are going to measure how much is an API more efficient when comparing it to another API you need to set ALL effects to OFF or LOW. In that scenario you will see how efficiently is CPU working with one or other API...

If you set graphical effects/details to maximum, you will see only one thing - how fast is GPU...
post #26 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdlvx View Post

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)



I don't know why you are so compelled to defend these drivers in the face of so much conflicting evidence.

And as for the prices, I took the lowest prices I could find on Newegg. I always do that when comparing prices because it's only fair to compare prices between the same retailer. It's too easy to fudge numbers to push an agenda when you start grabbing tons of different stores.

You do know that grabbing tons of different stories to fudge numbers is exactly what that extremetech article is doing? It's the same as grabbing all 0% increase mantle graphs you can find and then copy pasting them into a single article.

Because it's almost as if you only looked at that single article (that was linked on SA) and made a conclusion. People who've actually looked into the drivers know that the article is garbage.

It's easy to pull the same stunt on mantle as that article did for 337.50. However it's even easier for 337.50 because it supports all DX11 games, most of which are quite easy to make GPU bottlenecked.

Take something like this for example:



If you want tons of evidence people have tons of benches up here:

http://www.overclock.net/t/1479451/various-geforce-337-50-wonder-driver-beta-release

Example of reviews that do show good gains:

http://www.overclock.net/t/1480050/battlefield-4-benchmarks-ht-on-vs-off-win8-1-vs-win7-new-nvidia-337-50-drivers
http://www.forum-3dcenter.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=10170731&postcount=24
http://www.guru3d.com/news_story/geforce_337_50_beta_sli_performance_benchmarks.html

The performance increases with these drivers come from the same issues as they do with mantle. If you have a game/situation with those issues you will see gains, if not, then you wont. The same as mantle

Only significant difference for the user is that mantle is a bit more efficient but supports only 2 titles at the moment while 337.50 isn't quite as efficient but the improvements are DX11 wide.


And for the 750Ti vs. 260X, yeah I looked at newegg as well, $130 for 260X 2GB and $150 for 750Ti 2GB. $10 less for both if you include rebates.

Alatar, I think you need to relax. I am not the one making the claim that Mantle will make all games much faster.

The truth of the matter is that the Nvidia driver only really seems to help when Mantle helps. And when Mantle helps, it helps more.

The new Nvidia DirectX is not a replacement for Mantle. It's an alternative that doesn't give the same ratios of performance gain.

I think you are a little confused. No one in the entire world is claiming that Mantle will make all games faster. You were claiming 337.50 Nvidia drivers make all DirectX games faster.

Will 337.50 drivers offer little improvement with something like 4960x? Yeah. Will it offer more with a low end CPU? yeah. The same is said for Mantle.

Both technologies are meant to make some games perform much better. Neither is a magic bullet for all existing games.

As for the prices, please stay on topic. We are talking about Nvidia 337.50 drivers and not the cost of the cards. I only brought it up to try and put into place the fact that one is cheaper yet it becomes faster with Mantle in a low end system.

My issue with this thread is that someone is making a claim that 337.50 drivers make all DirectX games see improvements on the scale of this Star Swarm benchmark, and that's not the case.
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post #27 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post

You do know that grabbing tons of different stories to fudge numbers is exactly what that extremetech article is doing? It's the same as grabbing all 0% increase mantle graphs you can find and then copy pasting them into a single article.

Because it's almost as if you only looked at that single article (that was linked on SA) and made a conclusion. People who've actually looked into the drivers know that the article is garbage.

It's easy to pull the same stunt on mantle as that article did for 337.50. However it's even easier for 337.50 because it supports all DX11 games, most of which are quite easy to make GPU bottlenecked.

Take something like this for example:



If you want tons of evidence people have tons of benches up here:

http://www.overclock.net/t/1479451/various-geforce-337-50-wonder-driver-beta-release

Example of reviews that do show good gains:

http://www.overclock.net/t/1480050/battlefield-4-benchmarks-ht-on-vs-off-win8-1-vs-win7-new-nvidia-337-50-drivers
http://www.forum-3dcenter.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=10170731&postcount=24
http://www.guru3d.com/news_story/geforce_337_50_beta_sli_performance_benchmarks.html

The performance increases with these drivers come from the same issues as they do with mantle. If you have a game/situation with those issues you will see gains, if not, then you wont. The same as mantle

Only significant difference for the user is that mantle is a bit more efficient but supports only 2 titles at the moment while 337.50 isn't quite as efficient but the improvements are DX11 wide.


And for the 750Ti vs. 260X, yeah I looked at newegg as well, $130 for 260X 2GB and $150 for 750Ti 2GB. $10 less for both if you include rebates.
337.50 is still the same as it is dx11 and bellow.

Flawed don't you think?


Our definition of budget gaming may differ to the point where you consider 150 dollar budget but that dx in it's current form is pretty flawed that we should agree on.
post #28 of 48
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdlvx View Post

Alatar, I think you need to relax. I am not the one making the claim that Mantle will make all games much faster.

The truth of the matter is that the Nvidia driver only really seems to help when Mantle helps. And when Mantle helps, it helps more.

The new Nvidia DirectX is not a replacement for Mantle. It's an alternative that doesn't give the same ratios of performance gain.

I think you are a little confused. No one in the entire world is claiming that Mantle will make all games faster. You were claiming 337.50 Nvidia drivers make all DirectX games faster.

Will 337.50 drivers offer little improvement with something like 4960x? Yeah. Will it offer more with a low end CPU? yeah. The same is said for Mantle.

Both technologies are meant to make some games perform much better. Neither is a magic bullet for all existing games.

As for the prices, please stay on topic. We are talking about Nvidia 337.50 drivers and not the cost of the cards. I only brought it up to try and put into place the fact that one is cheaper yet it becomes faster with Mantle in a low end system.

My issue with this thread is that someone is making a claim that 337.50 drivers make all DirectX games see improvements on the scale of this Star Swarm benchmark, and that's not the case.

But no one claimed that you will see Star Swarm-esque fps improvements in all DX11 games (or mantle games for that matter).

1) I just said improvements, not the same level of improvements.
2) I wasn't even talking about fps, but about lowering CPU overhead.

And yes mantle helps more in mantle titles but off the top of my head I can think of a bunch more DX11 titles that saw sizable improvements with the latest NV drivers:

-BF4 multi
-Thief
-Just cause 2
-Sleeping dogs
-Hitman absolution
-crysis
-crysis 3
-Elder scrolls online
-etc.

That's the point I'm getting at here, 337.50 and mantle help in the same kinds situations, mantle helps more but only has a limited scope of games to work with.
 
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post #29 of 48
tl;dr of what they're saying. Clog the GPU and you benchmark the GPU. Clog the CPU and benchmark that.

CPUs clog anyway on most games without Vsync, but you need low or old graphics for them to be free.

To clog the GPU you mainly need high or new graphics. Though make sure the CPU is new/fast.


PS. It has to be said this is simplistic. The system is not just a CPU and GPU. It's also the interconnects between them, the memory technologies etc. that play a MAJOR role. e.g. you allieviate CPUs with those GL_AMD_multi_draw_indirect methods but they do not only alleviate the CPU, they may alleviate the whole system between them in varying or unpredictable amounts, and they give a slight load on the GPU. That's why you need benchmarks.
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post #30 of 48
Just Cause 2 Settings-


Resolution at 1366x768
335.23 Drivers-


337.50 Beta Drivers-
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