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[pcper] AMD Mantle and NVIDIA 337.50 Scaling Demonstrated with Star Swarm on AM1 - Page 5

post #41 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vagrant Storm View Post

This is my feelings on it as well. If I can get a 15% boost with no change made to the games...as in just a driver update. I will take that over a 30% boost for two specific games when ran on specific hardware. The only thing I am little upset over is that Nvidia hasn't had their drivers set up like this for a long time. I mean, even Fermi got a boost. So whatever they are doing they are tapping potential that has been in these GPUs for a long time. I know, I know...development takes time, but still...I could have been using Ubersampling on The Witcher 2 for a long time tongue.gif

Then when DX12 comes out...if it even does half of what Mantle has the potential to do I think it will be the cloud on Mantle's sunny day. I just don't see Mantle surviving unless AMD starts churning out more and more versions of it for more GPUs and I don't know if that is possible for them to do with GPUs they don't make. Though even if they did that the developers would have to make a different version of the game for each mantle version...I think...in theory that is what should need to happen, but it is hard to tell at this point. It might be possible to add the extra libraries for other GPUs into one version, but then I think you will be loosing a lot of the benefit of Mantle because it won't be as low level any more and need to be detecting what library to access and when. I don't know...all guess work at this point.

What specific hardware are you referring to?
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post #42 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vagrant Storm View Post

This is my feelings on it as well. If I can get a 15% boost with no change made to the games...as in just a driver update. I will take that over a 30% boost for two specific games when ran on specific hardware. The only thing I am little upset over is that Nvidia hasn't had their drivers set up like this for a long time. I mean, even Fermi got a boost. So whatever they are doing they are tapping potential that has been in these GPUs for a long time. I know, I know...development takes time, but still...I could have been using Ubersampling on The Witcher 2 for a long time tongue.gif

Then when DX12 comes out...if it even does half of what Mantle has the potential to do I think it will be the cloud on Mantle's sunny day. I just don't see Mantle surviving unless AMD starts churning out more and more versions of it for more GPUs and I don't know if that is possible for them to do with GPUs they don't make. Though even if they did that the developers would have to make a different version of the game for each mantle version...I think...in theory that is what should need to happen, but it is hard to tell at this point. It might be possible to add the extra libraries for other GPUs into one version, but then I think you will be loosing a lot of the benefit of Mantle because it won't be as low level any more and need to be detecting what library to access and when. I don't know...all guess work at this point.

Driver development isn't cheap. Nvidia had to have a compelling reason to put way more effort into it. Mantle was that reason and the way I see it, it was one of the major driving forces for the DX12 announcement as well. For these things, I salute AMD and Mantle. Shaking the status quo was overdue since rarely does it have such positive effects so quickly.
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post #43 of 48
Thread Starter 
One thing I just realized is that PCPer tested this with 335 vs. 337.

At least in star swarm you can already see CPU overhead optimizations when you compare previous drivers to 335s. (this is why the 750ti is so much ahead of the 260X when there's less of a CPU bottleneck present, 335 driver set already had lower DX11 CPU overhead than AMD driver sets)



So had they tested with earlier drivers the percentages would have been even more impressive.
 
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post #44 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdlvx View Post

So a $150 graphics card using DX is faster than a $120 graphics card using Mantle when using a $1000 CPU.

The 750Ti is the faster card on average when there's no CPU bottleneck.

You can make a 290X look like a bad deal if you use a pentium 4 to bench. This shouldn't be news to anyone.
Quote:
The $120 card is faster than the $150 card when the $120 card is using Mantle on a low end CPU.

I'm glad you cleared this up. Hopefully AMD can continue to offer faster performance while costing 25% less. It just seems so much more likely to pair a $120 graphics card with a low end CPU than with a $1000 CPU.

It looks like a win in my book. 260x gets creamed when there is no CPU bottleneck (because it's a lower tier chip), yet it ends up competitive with a more expensive chip when you shift the bottleneck to CPU.

So, the smartest thing to do from this review is to spend less on CPU and more on an AMD GPU for Mantle.

For reference, the $120 Nvidia GPU is the plain old GTX 750, which is about 20% slower than GTX 750 Ti.

But I think the most humorous part of this is that GTX 750 Ti was beating 260x in Directx only with Kabini, but with the new Nvidia drivers and Mantle, the 750 Ti actually loses. So it went from winning to losing thanks to Mantle.

Also, as a side note, 260x improvement with Mantle: 27% GTX 750 Ti improvement with new drivers 21%.

Also appears to be a card that is much harder to drive as well. The CPU is still required to pre-render frames for the GPU. Mantle sure removes a massive CPU bottleneck when you consider the difference between the numbers achiever with the 260X. You don't run into any issue with low end CPUs until you hit the performance a GTX 750 Ti puts out (which is the most interesting thing to see with Mantle).

As much as I would like Mantle to gain traction, I hope this heavy competition would just yield DX12 to be what Mantle was achieving. It would benefit the industry much more than isolating 2 platforms. Mantle just shows how insufficient DX is and where it needs to be improved upon.
post #45 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by specopsFI View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vagrant Storm View Post

This is my feelings on it as well. If I can get a 15% boost with no change made to the games...as in just a driver update. I will take that over a 30% boost for two specific games when ran on specific hardware. The only thing I am little upset over is that Nvidia hasn't had their drivers set up like this for a long time. I mean, even Fermi got a boost. So whatever they are doing they are tapping potential that has been in these GPUs for a long time. I know, I know...development takes time, but still...I could have been using Ubersampling on The Witcher 2 for a long time tongue.gif

Then when DX12 comes out...if it even does half of what Mantle has the potential to do I think it will be the cloud on Mantle's sunny day. I just don't see Mantle surviving unless AMD starts churning out more and more versions of it for more GPUs and I don't know if that is possible for them to do with GPUs they don't make. Though even if they did that the developers would have to make a different version of the game for each mantle version...I think...in theory that is what should need to happen, but it is hard to tell at this point. It might be possible to add the extra libraries for other GPUs into one version, but then I think you will be loosing a lot of the benefit of Mantle because it won't be as low level any more and need to be detecting what library to access and when. I don't know...all guess work at this point.

Driver development isn't cheap. Nvidia had to have a compelling reason to put way more effort into it. Mantle was that reason and the way I see it, it was one of the major driving forces for the DX12 announcement as well. For these things, I salute AMD and Mantle. Shaking the status quo was overdue since rarely does it have such positive effects so quickly.

Though I wonder how much of this was spurred by the gaming industry going around and asking for a lower level API. Supposedly Mantle wasn't really AMD's idea...they were approached by developers about it and said, "We can do that". Nvidia supposedly declined, but I wouldn't be surprised if this driver's development started about the same time. I've never heard of Microsoft getting approached, but I find it hard to believe that the group would not have started with MS...I bet DX12 development started shortly after the meeting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bencher View Post


What specific hardware are you referring to?

The GPUs that are currently supported by Mantle...
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post #46 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vagrant Storm View Post

Though I wonder how much of this was spurred by the gaming industry going around and asking for a lower level API. Supposedly Mantle wasn't really AMD's idea...they were approached by developers about it and said, "We can do that". Nvidia supposedly declined, but I wouldn't be surprised if this driver's development started about the same time. I've never heard of Microsoft getting approached, but I find it hard to believe that the group would not have started with MS...I bet DX12 development started shortly after the meeting.
The GPUs that are currently supported by Mantle...

Only Nvidia cards are supported by their drivers also.
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post #47 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vagrant Storm View Post

Though I wonder how much of this was spurred by the gaming industry going around and asking for a lower level API. Supposedly Mantle wasn't really AMD's idea...they were approached by developers about it and said, "We can do that". Nvidia supposedly declined, but I wouldn't be surprised if this driver's development started about the same time. I've never heard of Microsoft getting approached, but I find it hard to believe that the group would not have started with MS...I bet DX12 development started shortly after the meeting.

Those needs and desires have been stated publicly for a long time. IMO, the fact that AMD actually did something concrete to finally address them was what the industry needed to get the ball rolling.
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post #48 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by bencher View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vagrant Storm View Post

Though I wonder how much of this was spurred by the gaming industry going around and asking for a lower level API. Supposedly Mantle wasn't really AMD's idea...they were approached by developers about it and said, "We can do that". Nvidia supposedly declined, but I wouldn't be surprised if this driver's development started about the same time. I've never heard of Microsoft getting approached, but I find it hard to believe that the group would not have started with MS...I bet DX12 development started shortly after the meeting.
The GPUs that are currently supported by Mantle...

Only Nvidia cards are supported by their drivers also.
touche, touche...but the driver change supports a heck of a lot of cards from four generations (I believe it should affect the 400 series...though, if only three that is still a lot). Plus the driver will work on any game with Direct X...even DX9 games have had reported boosts. Has Mantle even been made to support the 7870/7850 yet? It really should have out of the box.

Though really it is about Direct X. It is using an API open to both sides...better. That's the big deal. If Nvidia can find a way to get better CPU utilization out Direct X than I'd like to think AMD should be able to as well and we could stick with one API to rule them all. Which I'd prefer to be OpenGL personally, but you can't have everything. If you start dividing games by which API they use we will end up in this dark future where the game hardware requirements will say it needs a specific brand of GPU to run...and I don't think any one wants that...save for maybe AMD and Nvidia.
Edited by Vagrant Storm - 4/22/14 at 10:52am
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