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Why NOT buy Samsung 840 EVO? - Page 22

post #211 of 234
I hope to buy this drive for a future mini-itx build but what is the best configuration if one wants to dual boot Linux and Windows? One 500GB (and dual boot) or 2 250GB drives and one is installed Linux and the other houses Windows?

I kinda don't like both operating systems on the same drive as dual booting can sometimes be a pain and you have to worry about upsetting another OS whenever you re-install.

On the other hand, SSDs are much faster so switching/dual-booting to the other OS should be much faster. That is appealing just on its own. Price wise, it's close with maybe one 500GB drive being cheaper even. My initial plan was two SSDs but in a mini-itx case, some cases are so small, that you have to be innovative to install/mount more than one SSD. I was going to use virtual machines so that's why I was thinking of having the min. capacity of at least the Linux SSD to be a 250/256GB drive.
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post #212 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by noobee View Post

I hope to buy this drive for a future mini-itx build but what is the best configuration if one wants to dual boot Linux and Windows? One 500GB (and dual boot) or 2 250GB drives and one is installed Linux and the other houses Windows?

I kinda don't like both operating systems on the same drive as dual booting can sometimes be a pain and you have to worry about upsetting another OS whenever you re-install.

On the other hand, SSDs are much faster so switching/dual-booting to the other OS should be much faster. That is appealing just on its own. Price wise, it's close with maybe one 500GB drive being cheaper even. My initial plan was two SSDs but in a mini-itx case, some cases are so small, that you have to be innovative to install/mount more than one SSD. I was going to use virtual machines so that's why I was thinking of having the min. capacity of at least the Linux SSD to be a 250/256GB drive.

 

I think this question needs its own thread because the title of this thread won't be telling anyone that you asked.

 

My 2 cents on it though is that I would personally go with a 2-drive setup because like you said, if you want to reinstall one of them, then you might have to do a few extra steps just to make sure you get your dual-boot menu back. With a 2-drive setup, you always have dual-boot no matter what. :) Yeah, no menu, but still: you know what I mean.

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post #213 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoCables View Post

I think this question needs its own thread because the title of this thread won't be telling anyone that you asked.

My 2 cents on it though is that I would personally go with a 2-drive setup because like you said, if you want to reinstall one of them, then you might have to do a few extra steps just to make sure you get your dual-boot menu back. With a 2-drive setup, you always have dual-boot no matter what. smile.gif Yeah, no menu, but still: you know what I mean.
Oh okay, sorry about that. smile.gif I thought if there is any issue with the drive based on this configuration, maybe it would be stated? smile.gif

You are right, that is what I was thinking - it will be easier to maintain whenever re-installing a new OS or diagnosing any issue that has an influence or effect on the boot-up or when booting.

But, I was wondering if one 500GB SSD might be a better performer than either 250GB version so everything would be faster. I don't have to switch drives (which will take a bit extra time) and the overall performance would be better to some extent? OTOH, there's more potential for some bootup problems maintaining different operating systems and having two different bootloaders on the same drive (but, same as usual). One configuration offers convenience and less worry whereas the other offers more speed and one less drive to mount.
Edited by noobee - 5/14/14 at 3:57pm
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post #214 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by noobee View Post


Oh okay, sorry about that. smile.gif I thought if there is any issue with the drive based on this configuration, maybe it would be stated? smile.gif

You are right, that is what I was thinking - it will be easier to maintain whenever re-installing a new OS or diagnosing any issue that has an influence or effect on the boot-up or when booting.

But, I was wondering if one 500GB SSD might be a better performer than either 250GB version so everything would be faster. I don't have to switch drives (which will take a bit extra time) and the overall performance would be better to some extent? OTOH, there's more potential for some bootup problems maintaining different operating systems and having two different bootloaders on the same drive (but, same as usual). One configuration offers convenience and less worry whereas the other offers more speed and one less drive to mount.

 

You wouldn't notice (I doubt that anyone would). Hell, I upgraded from the 60 GB Mushkin Callisto Deluxe to the 250 GB 840 EVO, and I'm not noticing any difference at all. Not with my Windows startup time, not with anything. All of my real-world performance feels identical. This doesn't mean that I have a bad drive, it just means that I wasn't using the Callisto Deluxe to its fullest potential.

 

With RAPID Mode enabled, the only thing that gets faster is my Windows startup time, but it's only about 1 second faster. lol

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post #215 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by noobee View Post

Oh okay, sorry about that. smile.gif I thought if there is any issue with the drive based on this configuration, maybe it would be stated? smile.gif

You are right, that is what I was thinking - it will be easier to maintain whenever re-installing a new OS or diagnosing any issue that has an influence or effect on the boot-up or when booting.

But, I was wondering if one 500GB SSD might be a better performer than either 250GB version so everything would be faster. I don't have to switch drives (which will take a bit extra time) and the overall performance would be better to some extent? OTOH, there's more potential for some bootup problems maintaining different operating systems and having two different bootloaders on the same drive (but, same as usual). One configuration offers convenience and less worry whereas the other offers more speed and one less drive to mount.

Do you mean you would have to physically switch drives? I wouldn't want to do that. It just sounds stupid to me compared to a boot menu. If you can have both drives installed in the ITX case, it should just be hitting F12 or something to get to the BIOS boot menu. That sounds nice enough to me.

Handling Windows and Linux on a single drive isn't too hard. Third party partition management software like MiniTool Partition Wizard can deal with both NTFS and EXT4 etc. so can resize Linux just fine. Those tools can also move partitions around which the Windows Disk Management can't do.

Installing Windows and Linux without tools like that is also easy. You can for example first install Windows. After that, you shrink the Windows partition or the last NTFS partition for data you created on the drive. In the newly create empty space at the end of the drive, you'll install your Linux distribution.

You can also do that in a reversed order.

Reinstalling Windows or Linux is also easy. You simply delete all their partitions and boot their installation media and use the empty space as target.

Fixing up the boot loaders and boot manager takes some research. Good luck with that. tongue.gif

Also, if you don't yet know how the new UEFI stuff works, you'll have to read up on that. It's very different from the past MBR. I don't know what's easier to handle, but both things work. I bet MBR has the better tools to deal with the boot manager and stuff. UEFI uses a tiny FAT32 formatted partition for boot loaders. UEFI can be neat as it's actually possible to have multiple boot loaders on the drive which will all show up in the boot menu of the UEFI BIOS. That means you can theoretically simply not deal with setting up the boot manager at all and just use the UEFI BIOS menu. No idea if that's just with my UEFI BIOS board and different on other boards.

Another new thing to look out for is that Windows 8 creates a lot of strange partitions on the drive when using UEFI. Because of that, its installation program needs to have empty space to work with on the drive. With MBR in the past, you could manually create NTFS partitions and use those. I didn't use Windows 7 with UEFI so can't say what that wants to do on an UEFI system.
post #216 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by deepor View Post


Do you mean you would have to physically switch drives? I wouldn't want to do that. It just sounds stupid to me compared to a boot menu. If you can have both drives installed in the ITX case, it should just be hitting F12 or something to get to the BIOS boot menu. That sounds nice enough to me.

 

He's talking about having both drives installed and just switching the boot priority instead of using a boot menu. The only problem is, not every board has that quick menu. Mine doesn't; if I want to boot from a different drive, then I have to go in to the UEFI BIOS, switch to the Boot tab, and then select the drive in the list of drives in the "Boot Override" list. Fortunately, this can potentially only take about 3 seconds to accomplish if you know exactly what you're doing. For me, it's just a sequence of a few keystrokes now.

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250 GB Samsung 840 EVO (C:\) 250 GB Samsung 840 EVO (D:\) 150 GB WD VelociRaptor Samsung SH-S243N 24x DVD Burner 
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post #217 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoCables View Post

He's talking about having both drives installed and just switching the boot priority instead of using a boot menu. The only problem is, not every board has that quick menu. Mine doesn't; if I want to boot from a different drive, then I have to go in to the UEFI BIOS, switch to the Boot tab, and then select the drive in the list of drives in the "Boot Override" list. Fortunately, this can potentially only take about 3 seconds to accomplish if you know exactly what you're doing. For me, it's just a sequence of a few keystrokes now.
Yes, exactly right. smile.gif That's what I meant. I figure most recent/modern motherboards have either option (to switch via BIOS - takes longer) or to hit one of the function keys (IIRC, I use F8) to change boot options? Even my Asus P5Q I use now has a BIOS that allows that. One needs it in order to install an OS via usb thumb (flash) drive (so that one can choose the USB drive to boot from).
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post #218 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by deepor View Post

Do you mean you would have to physically switch drives? I wouldn't want to do that. It just sounds stupid to me compared to a boot menu. If you can have both drives installed in the ITX case, it should just be hitting F12 or something to get to the BIOS boot menu. That sounds nice enough to me.

Handling Windows and Linux on a single drive isn't too hard. Third party partition management software like MiniTool Partition Wizard can deal with both NTFS and EXT4 etc. so can resize Linux just fine. Those tools can also move partitions around which the Windows Disk Management can't do.

Installing Windows and Linux without tools like that is also easy. You can for example first install Windows. After that, you shrink the Windows partition or the last NTFS partition for data you created on the drive. In the newly create empty space at the end of the drive, you'll install your Linux distribution.

You can also do that in a reversed order.

Reinstalling Windows or Linux is also easy. You simply delete all their partitions and boot their installation media and use the empty space as target.

Fixing up the boot loaders and boot manager takes some research. Good luck with that. tongue.gif

Also, if you don't yet know how the new UEFI stuff works, you'll have to read up on that. It's very different from the past MBR. I don't know what's easier to handle, but both things work. I bet MBR has the better tools to deal with the boot manager and stuff. UEFI uses a tiny FAT32 formatted partition for boot loaders. UEFI can be neat as it's actually possible to have multiple boot loaders on the drive which will all show up in the boot menu of the UEFI BIOS. That means you can theoretically simply not deal with setting up the boot manager at all and just use the UEFI BIOS menu. No idea if that's just with my UEFI BIOS board and different on other boards.

Another new thing to look out for is that Windows 8 creates a lot of strange partitions on the drive when using UEFI. Because of that, its installation program needs to have empty space to work with on the drive. With MBR in the past, you could manually create NTFS partitions and use those. I didn't use Windows 7 with UEFI so can't say what that wants to do on an UEFI system.
I'll use Win7 for now and typically use some flavour of Debian and/or Ubuntu. Maybe two Linux partiions, depending on the size of SSD I get.

I forgot about UEFI. Sounds complicated. Maybe the two SSD system I was originally thinking of is a better way? smile.gif My experience is dual or multiple booting systems works well until you need to upgrade an OS or if you re-install a Linux OS. It's often straight forward but sometimes one 'selection' means something won't boot and you have to update grub or something.

Also, it always works better if Windows is installed first. So, if I end up re-installing Windows or want to use Windows 8, there is a lot of reading to do as I don't recall all the steps to fix the boot loader. smile.gif

Dedicating the SSDs to Windows on one SSD and one to Linux will avoid this hassle. But, it means finding a spot to mount the other SSD if I use a case like the SG05 (I have no plan on using the ODD rack if I choose that case).
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post #219 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by noobee View Post


Yes, exactly right. smile.gif That's what I meant. I figure most recent/modern motherboards have either option (to switch via BIOS - takes longer) or to hit one of the function keys (IIRC, I use F8) to change boot options? Even my Asus P5Q I use now has a BIOS that allows that. One needs it in order to install an OS via usb thumb (flash) drive (so that one can choose the USB drive to boot from).

 

In response to your 2nd post above: it's not complicated. My motherboard has a UEFI BIOS, and Windows 7 installs normally. There's nothing that you need to know. You just boot to the Windows 7 DVD or to your USB flash drive and install Windows 7. It's extremely easy. This is also how I installed Windows 8.1 (the free trial/evaluation that's available). I don't know what all this UEFI talk is about, but it didn't make installing Windows 7 any different for me than the way it installed with my EP45-UD3P.

 

Anyway, I don't need a quick boot menu in order to select a USB flash drive. I just go into my UEFI BIOS, go to the boot priority area and select my USB flash drive in the Boot Override list. Or, I can make it permanent if I want to by selecting it from the permanent list (I don't know what else to call it).

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250 GB Samsung 840 EVO (C:\) 250 GB Samsung 840 EVO (D:\) 150 GB WD VelociRaptor Samsung SH-S243N 24x DVD Burner 
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It's a computer!
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Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveOptical Drive
250 GB Samsung 840 EVO (C:\) 250 GB Samsung 840 EVO (D:\) 150 GB WD VelociRaptor Samsung SH-S243N 24x DVD Burner 
Optical DriveCoolingOSMonitor
Samsung SH-S203N 20X DVD Burner Thermaltake Frio Win 7 Home Premium x64 SP1 Retail AOC G2460PG (24" 1920 x 1080 144Hz G-SYNC) 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
Filco Majestouch 104-key Cherry MX Blues w/NKRO Corsair HX650 (Bronze, ordered on 12-12-2009) CM 690 Intellimouse Optical (1.1A) 1000Hz polling rate 
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post #220 of 234
After grub is set up right and things break for some reason, it's really just running the update script once and everything works again. Nothing more. It has a script to find the Windows boot loader and add it to its boot manager screen, and another script to find the newest Linux kernel and add it.

On my board at least, you see all boot loaders that are in that EFI system partition. This means when the Windows side breaks the grub boot manager and replaces it with the Windows one, I'll still see an entry like "Ubuntu" in the F12 menu of the BIOS. That's because there's sub-folders in the EFI partition and there can be more boot loaders beside the default one in the main folder. That's an upside compared to MBR.

For dedicated SSDs, I'd probably still battle with the grub setup to get a nice menu for Windows and Linux without having to use the BIOS menu. This means it would be the same amount of work for me or perhaps even worse as I bet there's no guides for this. For the single drive method, there's guides.
Edited by deepor - 5/16/14 at 10:40am
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