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If your Haswell is stable, is it actually high _voltage_ or high _temperature_ that will hurt it over time? (How bad are high cache volts really?)

post #1 of 18
Thread Starter 
Hi folks,

My 4670K is poor for overclocking; it needs 1.431 VID just to do 4.4 Ghz (at 80 C in the x264 v2 stress test). If I push it any faster, it flirts with 100 C.

There is strong evidence that the Haswell cache (a.k.a. uncore) can be considerably slower than the cores with little ill effect. As a result, many run their cache slow (sometimes even 34/35) because it might need high volts to match OC core speed. The reasoning is, of course, "if cache speed doesn't matter much, why push it?"

But I'd like to explore the flip side of that. Why not push it? What exactly hurts a CPU and/or cache?

My poor CPU hits 80 C when stressed with the cores at 44 and 1.431 VID. At idle, this runs at 50 C if the cache is sidelined (speed 34, Auto volts ~1.094 in my rig in sig). If I match Uncore speed to Core, the cache needs 1.392 V and the rig runs at 53 on idle, but still 80 when stressed. Yes, it makes almost no difference to the X264 v2 stress test - but then, logically I suppose, also doesn't affect temps at all.

The bottom line is that, while fast 1:1 cache may not help much, who's to say it's hurting much? If the only difference is +3 C at idle (but not hotter when stressed), who cares? It's not like I'm worried about extra electricity charges for 1.4 V versus 1.0 V uncore. thumb.gif

What exactly is the evidence the high voltages damage over time? Or is it actually high temperatures (and "high volts" is just a proxy for that)? 50 versus 53 C is hardly worth writing home about.

Note that I am looking for solid evidence here, if anyone has some or can point to some. Or *lots* of personal experience (you run banks of PCs at work). We all have opinions and guesses.

What solid evidence is there that 1.4 volts will hurt? Looking for something more than "I burned out one CPU", please.

Please don't reply "why push it". The point of this post is, what's the evidence to not push it.

Thanks
post #2 of 18
Voltage is the killer. CPUs and GPUs today reach anywhere from 80 to high 90s at stock clocks and on stock cooling, and will usually start throttling back at around 90-100c (with the exception of Nvidia-gpus which are set not to go higher than 80).

Edit:
I cannot comment on what is "safe" for Haswell 24/7, as I do not have any experience with those. I can tell you though, that I ran 1,38v for quite some time, before I dropped the clock about 200mhz and settled for 1,32v on my 2500k, which has been running like that for two years now.
Edited by Hattifnatten - 5/4/14 at 7:49am
post #3 of 18
From personal experience, push it until it dies....

I have tried setting my Vid to 1.92v and down clock from 50x to see which one boots then which one will run a stress test.

If it is a clear cut case of beyond the operating limits of the CPU, it shuts down cold. The danger lies where the CPU runs and is stable BUT you are in the range of accelerated damage to CPU from electron degradation. So far I can't find any definitive literature on this part.

My OC method is the non-traditional way. Set everything to max to see how far it goes then down scale to find something stable. Do not try if you do not have adequate cooling measures.
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post #4 of 18
I thought my I5-4670k Was a bad overclocker. I am running 4.6GHZ @ 1.405V stable.
post #5 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedKnight7 View Post


What solid evidence is there that 1.4 volts will hurt? Looking for something more than "I burned out one CPU", please.

From the Haswell Death/Degradation thread:

CPU: i7-4770k

DELIDED: YES

REPORTED CONDITION: DEAD, R.I.P., MUERTO, KAPUTT

CAUSE OF DEATH: EXCESSIVE VOLTAGE, 1.37-1.4+V VCORE

HOW LONG OVERCLOCKED: Approx one (1) year

OP DESCRIPTION: I had ran a daily overclock of 4.4, but that wasn't the problem. My voltages were off the charts. My vcore was set on adaptive instead of manual and it would range anywhere from 1.375 to 1.4+ My input voltage was 1.9 and my uncore voltage was somewhere up there. I don't remember. I had this chip delided and OC'd for almost a year.

THREAD: http://www.overclock.net/t/1475351/i-think-my-4770k-gave-out

WARNING: HardOCP.COM state that anything over 1.35V VCORE 24/7 will degrade an Haswell pretty fast when conjoined with heavy loads and lots of working hours every day.



http://www.hardocp.com/article/2013/08/21/asus_maximus_vi_hero_lga_1150_motherboard_review/7
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post #6 of 18
I actually had a similar question only in regard to GPU memory a few days ago.

From what I've experienced and read, I think they are both detrimental. They are somewhat related in that higher voltage usually causes higher temperature. I think this can make it difficult to identify exactly what causes any observed degradation / damage.

I do know of cases where too much voltage causes significant damage / degradation while temperatures are perfectly fine though.

Take Sandy Bridge-E chips for example. I've read quite a few reports of people experiencing significant degradation due to VTT and VCCSA voltages being set too high. Given that most people who purchase these enthusiast chips use pretty robust cooling systems (closed loop liquid cooling solutions or custom loops) and the relatively small impact VTT and VCCSA have on temperature, I think this is evidence that voltage alone can be a problem.

Also, given that Intel / AMD usually list maximum safe operating temperature as well as voltage would lead me to believe they can both cause problems independent of the other.

Hopefully somebody more knowledgeable comes along with a detailed explanation. I'd like a definitive answer to this as well.
post #7 of 18
So should i be below 1.4V on my chip? I hope we get some answers.
post #8 of 18
It's not an either or thing, nor are voltage and temperature the only factors.

Voltage, temperature, and current all play major roles in electromigration damage. Thermal cycling and other mechanical stresses can also result in failure.
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post #9 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arxontas View Post

From the Haswell Death/Degradation thread:

CPU: i7-4770k

DELIDED: YES

REPORTED CONDITION: DEAD, R.I.P., MUERTO, KAPUTT

CAUSE OF DEATH: EXCESSIVE VOLTAGE, 1.37-1.4+V VCORE

HOW LONG OVERCLOCKED: Approx one (1) year

OP DESCRIPTION: I had ran a daily overclock of 4.4, but that wasn't the problem. My voltages were off the charts. My vcore was set on adaptive instead of manual and it would range anywhere from 1.375 to 1.4+ My input voltage was 1.9 and my uncore voltage was somewhere up there. I don't remember. I had this chip delided and OC'd for almost a year.

THREAD: http://www.overclock.net/t/1475351/i-think-my-4770k-gave-out

WARNING: HardOCP.COM state that anything over 1.35V VCORE 24/7 will degrade an Haswell pretty fast when conjoined with heavy loads and lots of working hours every day.



http://www.hardocp.com/article/2013/08/21/asus_maximus_vi_hero_lga_1150_motherboard_review/7


Keep in mind that is only one report. I would take that with a grain of salt. If we see more reports like that I would start to take notice.

Ivy bridge (22nm) could handle 1.4 vcore easily (combined with good temps), and 1.9v Input Voltage is not high at all.
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post #10 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anth Seebel View Post

Keep in mind that is only one report. I would take that with a grain of salt. If we see more reports like that I would start to take notice.

Ivy bridge (22nm) could handle 1.4 vcore easily (combined with good temps), and 1.9v Input Voltage is not high at all.

Alright, so i guess i will keep it running 24/7 at 1.405V. My max temp in the IBT is 74C, so i think i am good thumb.gif
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  • If your Haswell is stable, is it actually high _voltage_ or high _temperature_ that will hurt it over time? (How bad are high cache volts really?)
Overclock.net › Forums › Intel › Intel CPUs › If your Haswell is stable, is it actually high _voltage_ or high _temperature_ that will hurt it over time? (How bad are high cache volts really?)