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SSD Interface Comparison: PCI Express vs SATA - Page 7

post #61 of 182
[/quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by error-id10t View Post

This is going to sound negative but.. simply using those as the guide-post, I don't really see it as a success.

It's price is well beyond the "normal" SSDs, the use of PCIe though "new" for SSDs, isn't something earth-shattering and hell they defaulted to the slowest one, lastly, nobody cares about Seq speeds. So though nice it exists, bring on version 2 that is actually worth-while.

I understand, not to worry.

One issue or perhaps situation is, someone does care about sequential speeds. That being the marketing department and the less educated customers that only perceive the sequential speeds as the main or only spec that matters. When have we ever seen a 4K random read spec on a SSD's box? Or "Now with up to 40MB/s 4K Random Read!" written on the box?

I always go back to the Crucial C300 SSD as an example of marketing specs driving SSD performance. The C300 was capable of 4K random reads of a solid 30MB/s with NAND that was half the speed or less than that of the NAND we have now. The C300's sequential read speed was in the high 300MB/s range. Then the Crucial M4 was released with its 415MB/s sequential read speed, using faster NAND, and then after a firmware update (0009) 500MB/s sequential read speed, but did nothing with 4K random read speed. I truly believe that firmware is tuned for the highest sequential read and write speeds over other aspects of performance.

I gotta go, but more to this story... tongue.gif
post #62 of 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by parsec View Post

I understand, not to worry.

One issue or perhaps situation is, someone does care about sequential speeds. That being the marketing department and the less educated customers that only perceive the sequential speeds as the main or only spec that matters. When have we ever seen a 4K random read spec on a SSD's box? Or "Now with up to 40MB/s 4K Random Read!" written on the box?

I always go back to the Crucial C300 SSD as an example of marketing specs driving SSD performance. The C300 was capable of 4K random reads of a solid 30MB/s with NAND that was half the speed or less than that of the NAND we have now. The C300's sequential read speed was in the high 300MB/s range. Then the Crucial M4 was released with its 415MB/s sequential read speed, using faster NAND, and then after a firmware update (0009) 500MB/s sequential read speed, but did nothing with 4K random read speed. I truly believe that firmware is tuned for the highest sequential read and write speeds over other aspects of performance.

I gotta go, but more to this story... tongue.gif

I have a question that you might not be able to answer because it's kind of dumb but it kind of makes you think. Human perception can't get faster. So there will one day be a limit to how fast SSDs can go without diminishing the return. For example, one day, SSDs will be so fast that, in order to produce them faster, millions of dollars will have to be spent in order to get a bit more speed. It's kind of like 120 framerates. It is a bad idea to try and make a GPU capable of 120 frames on the upcoming 4K standard because it costs so much money and it will not be very noticeable anyways. That is kind of how I view the future of SSD speed. So that being said, what are your thoughts on that? I don't want to say that SSD speeds will get good enough, but realistically speaking, we won't be concerned as much with speed in the future.

But where I might be wrong is that when games (I am a gamer so I use games in all of my PC arguments) become 100 GB in size with native 4K textures, then we will need GPUs, RAM, and storage devices to be faster and faster.

So maybe I am wrong, but maybe I am right. I am no expert, which is why I give the floor to you all.

EDIT: I am not talking about commercial or industrial uses. They probably use their SSDs in different ways. I am talking about the home user.
Edited by Thready - 5/24/14 at 7:57am
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post #63 of 182
Quote:
It's kind of like 120 framerates. It is a bad idea to try and make a GPU capable of 120 frames on the upcoming 4K standard because it costs so much money and it will not be very noticeable anyways.

I think that's a bad example, going from 60hz to 120hz you're both doubling smoothness and also halving latency from that part of the display/gpu. It's easy to run stuff like desktop and non-gaming apps (see the retina macbooks) and is taken advantage sometimes, even with poor hardware, for some games (osu, League of Legends, as two examples that i play a lot)

Reducing mouse to screen latency by a third (or more, with a good setup) is absolutely noticable, the smoothness side that comes with it is just a bonus. I've seen bad 60hz setups with longer than 50ms mouse to screen, yet good 144hz can dip below 15ms. After stuff is already really smooth, more smoothness does not really matter so much, but it's not like we can't detect latency. For VR, it's been said, ideally, we'd be using like a 1000hz screen and 1000fps display - it's just not practical to do so, so they're shooting for ~85-100fps with low persistence and low latency (lower than most 60hz PC gamers by a pretty strong margin) to start things out.


As for SSD performance.. Well, if someone wants to move a bunch of 4k files from place to place, it's only as fast as the drive can handle it, if it's completely random reads it'll slow down a lot. Sequential is very fast, 1GB/s is already very fast and most people honestly don't care for it any more - the ones that do can get ridiculous speeds with RAID. I think we'll keep seeing stuff like boot time gains and general performance increase for a while improving random or near-random low-size read speed, though. That's the main advantage of an SSD over something like a raid 0 of a few velociraptor drives, which fail to compete
Edited by Cyro999 - 5/24/14 at 8:19am
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post #64 of 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyro999 View Post

I think that's a bad example, going from 60hz to 120hz you're both doubling smoothness and halving latency from that part of the display/gpu. It's easy to run stuff like desktop and non-gaming apps (see the retina macbooks) and is taken advantage sometimes, even with poor hardware, for some games (osu, League of Legends, as two examples that i play a lot)

Reducing mouse to screen latency by a third (or more, with a good setup) is absolutely noticable, the smoothness side that comes with it is just a bonus. I've seen bad 60hz setups with longer than 50ms mouse to screen, yet good 144hz can dip below 15ms.


As for SSD performance.. Well, if someone wants to move a bunch of 4k files from place to place, it's only as fast as the drive can handle it, if it's completely random reads it'll slow down a lot. Sequential is very fast, 1GB/s is already very fast and most people honestly don't care for it any more - the ones that do can get ridiculous speeds with RAID. I think we'll keep seeing stuff like boot time gains and general performance increase for a while improving random or near-random low-size read speed, though. That's the main advantage of an SSD over something like a raid 0 of a few velociraptor drives, which fail to compete

makes sense. So what do you think the future will be like? Do you think we will be as concerned about speed in the future as we are now? We have had hard disk type storage for over 30 years in the consumer market and speeds have gone up, yes, but not as much as the switch from hard disk to flash storage. Flash storage is so unbelievably fast compared to that, that speed increases from now into the future won't be as drastic, and thus it won't really be a big deal to talk about speed like it once was. I have an OCZ Vertex 4 in my PC and my dad has a Kingston "something" in his and the Kingston is not the quality SSD that OCZ is, but the speed difference is only noticeable if you put them side by side and run benchmarks.
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post #65 of 182
I've not been around for long enough, will see wink.gif
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post #66 of 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyro999 View Post

I've not been around for long enough, will see wink.gif

I think in the future that we will be beyond speed since things will be so ridiculously fast and we will move on to other things like the color choice of the SSD's label or something stupid.
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post #67 of 182
The real question should be: How often does an average person needs a load of 4k random writes? Even a *small* Office doc can hit hundred Kb and when people copy or moves multiple files it's often several MB per file like good quality MP3 or video.

Not sure I really understand how 4k random write worked but if it works like I think, those belongs to the DOS era where typing a text file over 1k was considered large, where picture (BMP usually) were almost always 640x480x8bit, and where apps usually could fit a single floppy disk with DOS.
    
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post #68 of 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thready View Post

I have a question that you might not be able to answer because it's kind of dumb but it kind of makes you think. Human perception can't get faster. So there will one day be a limit to how fast SSDs can go without diminishing the return.

EDIT: I am not talking about commercial or industrial uses. They probably use their SSDs in different ways. I am talking about the home user.

I personally believe that most of the stuff SSDs perform have reached this point already - except 4K QD1 reads. We've only gone backwards until the 840 EVO brought us back to where we already were.

If my SSD can do, just as an example, +100MB/s 4K QD1 writes that's one thing. But if that same SSD then reduces the reads at the same depth level down to 20MB/s.. and actually requires QD5 or QD6 to match those write speeds, something is awfully wrong.

You'll never see QD5 = SSD bottleneck. On my C: drive there are over 4 times the amount of <10K files compared to 10K-100K files. Sure you can scoff at that and say BF4 maps are huge and Seq speeds help there, that's fine but they're fast already.
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post #69 of 182
Thanks for the article!
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post #70 of 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by wilykat View Post

The real question should be: How often does an average person needs a load of 4k random writes? Even a *small* Office doc can hit hundred Kb and when people copy or moves multiple files it's often several MB per file like good quality MP3 or video.

Not sure I really understand how 4k random write worked but if it works like I think, those belongs to the DOS era where typing a text file over 1k was considered large, where picture (BMP usually) were almost always 640x480x8bit, and where apps usually could fit a single floppy disk with DOS.

4k random reads and writes are encountered all the time during general desktop usage (all the stuff in the background that you never notice). When copying a bunch of small files (can be as large as 5 mb or so), 4k random reads and writes are significantly more important than sequential. Although, those are generally high queue depth, not low queue depth like general desktop usage. The OS creates lots of temporary files to work, generally very small files.
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