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post #61 of 1132
@doyll

Hello, Thanks for taking time to answer our questions.

Question is a bit off topic but involves moving air, so...
I remember you saying that in your experience, for non tower(?) heatsinks, ie C1 you prefer the fan exhausting heat off the heatsink.

My question is, will that work on a PSU? If someone would flip the fan and make it exhaust air instead of intake.

My rig is set up like the front fan exhausts hot air both from inside the case and also somehow exhausts hot air off the back of the psu (exhaust side).My psu is placed at the front side of the case.
Like so--




Might be a different scenario with regards to cpu cooling but anyways, what is the worst thing that could happen if I flipped the psu fan?
I will flip the front fan also to have it as intake. In short, reverse the two fans in question. My current set up shows max temps of 68-71 when benchmarking.

Thank you in advance.
Edited by Mang Keon - 4/9/15 at 1:17am
post #62 of 1132
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by maddangerous View Post

Very nice. How much of a restriction is the fan.. "grill" built into pretty much every case? Is there much of an improvement in airflow because of the removal of the restriction, or is there more of a noticeable difference in the sound level of the fans while they are moving air? I am interested in doing this myself to both of my cases, but tbh, I'm a tad nervous about it, and do not know what to use for tools. Or how to go about such a thing.

Any tips for that?

I know that these are really more CPU cooler fans, but.. I have Phanteks PH-F140HP and they work great. They're quiet and keep my Phenom II 1090T six core pretty cool when running IBT for 3 hours. I know the CPU cooler comes into play a lot in this though. As case fans.. not sure. I wanted to use them in my case but the design of the mounts in the case are not normal so I could not use them. I'm not trying to step on Doyll's toes or anything, just a suggestion. Maybe he could chime in.

Also, chasing bunnies.. literally?
Post # 15 has Silverstone and Puget Systems data on how grills affect airflow and noise.

They work fine as case fans .. if you can mount them. I do not have most of the Phanteks fans to test, but by their specs they are all similar. Keep in mind when fans are used in normal applications (case, cooler, radiator) the airflow & pressure ratings are rather ambiguous .. fans with lower CFM but higher mmH2O ratings will often perform better than fans with higher CFM and lower mmH2O ratings. This is because the mmH2O rating means more airflow against resistance because CFM rating is with no resistance .. our use of fans always has resistance.
Code:
Phanteks 140mm fan comparison

PHANTEKS        PH-F140SP               PH-F140HP PWM           PH-F140XP PWM           PH-F140MP               PH-F140TS
Type            Case & Radiator         Cooler Case & Thermal   Case & Radiator         Radiator    Cooler Case & Thermal
Colors; Frame   Black                   White                   Black                   Black                   White
        Blades  White                   Black White Red Blue    White                   White                   Black White Red Blue
Blade Geometry  9x Blades with MVB      9x Blades with MVB      9x Blades with MVB      7x Blades with MVB2     9x Blades with MVB
LED             N/A or 4 LEDs           N/A                     N/A                     N/A                     N/A     
Bearing         UFB                     UFB                     UFB                     UFB                     UFB 

Dimensions      140 x 140 x 25mm        140 x 140 x 25mm        140 x 140 x 25mm        140 x 140 x 25mm        140 x 140 x 25mm
Mount Spacing   124.5mm (140mm fan)     105mm (120mm fan)       124.5mm (140mm fan)     124.5mm (140mm fan)     105mm (120mm fan)

Speed (RPM)     1200 ± 250 rpm          600 - 1300 ± 250 rpm    600-1200 ± 250 rpm      500-1600 ± 250 rpm      1200 ± 250 rpm
Max Airflow     82.1 CFM                40.9 - 88.6 CFM         40.9 - 85.19 CFM        68.1 CFM                78.1 CFM
Pressure        1.33mm H2O              0.39-1.64mm H2O         0.39-1.52mm H2O         1.62 mm H2O             1.21mm H2O
Noise           19 dB (A)               15.22 - 19 dB(A)        15.22 - 19 dB(A)        17-25.3 dB(A)           19 dB(A)
Speed Control   Variable Voltage        PWM                     PWM                     PWM                     Variable Voltage

Input Current   0.14 A                  0.14 A                  0.14 A                  0.2 A                   0.15 A
Rate Voltage    DC 12V                  DC 12V                  DC 12V                  DC 12V                  DC 12V
Input Power     1.8 W                   1.8 W                   1.8 W                   2.4 W                   1.8 W


Data from Phanteks website
http://phanteks.com/products.html#fans                                                                                  by doyll

Sorry, was not actually chasing bunnies. biggrin.gif
post #63 of 1132
Thread Starter 
@Mang Keon I'm assuming the PSU intake fan is behind the punched sheetmetal grill in upper left corner of case? Where is it's exhaust vent? Sorry, I'm not familiar with your case, at least I don't recognize it all opened up like it is. redface.gif


Phanteks Enthoo Luxe and Pro Bottom Filter Modification so it is One Long Filter That Slides Out the Front

I hate having to pull case out from under desk to clean the filters. Seems as often as not something gets knocked loose I bang my head, kneel on a tack .. always something. As I was cursing the design engineers and examining the Luxe for more idiot engineers' great ideas I noticed they screwed up and made the track for the filters full length with no stops! And with the front bottom filter removed the PSU filter can slide all the way through and out the front.

Humm.. Checked spacing between filters when installed in case, made a 'spacer' out of something I had the same thickness a filters, then lined up the filters on desk with spacer and taped each side with packaging tape cut to width so it does not cover filter media and now I have one long filter that slides in from the front! Job done! Now I can pull out all the bottom filters from the front, clean and replace without moving the case. thumb.gif

Edit 10/02/15: I noticed the PSU is drawing a little dusty air from behind the filter. I need get the case out and turn it on it's side or over and figure out exactly what the problem is. I'm hoping to only need to add a spacer of about 5mm between the two filters so when it clicks in place from front the PSU filter sets back about 5mm farther back and filters all the air going into PSU.

Edited by doyll - 1/14/17 at 6:39am
post #64 of 1132
@doyll

It's an sg-05 rotated 90 deg to the left.
That's the PSU's intake beside the big fan (XT-140 on the left).

So Imagine the psu's exhaust behind the front fan. I can only use 15mm front fan.Exhausted air is very warm.


No significant obstruction as far as I know. so the psu exhausts directly in front fan's airflow

Ambient temp is like 20 Celsius- And I get 71 max. Is this acceptable? It's not even summer yet.
Edited by Mang Keon - 4/9/15 at 5:48am
post #65 of 1132
Thread Starter 
Wow! The one's I've seen had the PSU over the CPU exhausting out the back. The way you have it setup, either way you have the PSU airflow will have heated exhaust being drawn into intake .. or is the fan over your CPU cooler exhaust with CPU fan pulling air out of cooler?


Phanteks PWM Fan Hub Review
(PWM control converted to variable voltage fan hub)
By Tealc

The Phanteks PWM hub is a small device that allows the user to control a number of 3 pin fans using your computer’s native CPU PWM control signal, or valid PWM signal you choose to feed into it.



The hub measures approximately 45 x 40 x 15mm so is small enough to be tucked away behind a motherboard. The fans exit around the outside of the hub and this increases the footprint considerably but adds no further height.

The unit can be powered in two ways:-
  • Via computer PWM header using the standard 1 Amp header.
  • Via special 2 pin connector and cable assembly to SATA connector for more power.

Both can be connected as they have a shared connection on the PCB. To fully disconnect PWM header power the wires would need to be broken, or terminals pulled.

How the device operates:
A PWM signal is taken from the single 4-pin connector and converted to DC power which then feeds each of the six 3-pin headers.

How it works, the circuit:
A NPN transistor takes the PWM signal and sends it to a push pull NPN/PNP transistor pair where it is level shifted to a 12v PWM, this in turn feeds into a P-channel Mosfet which handles the switching of the 12v fan load. There is also an inductor and a capacitor on the output which does the smoothing and provides, more or less a DC voltage signal. A Schottky diode sits across the fan load and prevents any significant reverse transient spikes that could potentially destroy the Mosfet. There are a number of other resistors and diodes.

Interestingly there are a number of positions unpopulated, R5 (resistor), C2 (capacitor), D3 (diode), and perhaps most interesting of all on the front are spaces for three resistors and three LEDs. These are wired directly to the 12v source and the resistors are there to limit current. I feel this is an opportunity missed by Phanteks as they really would be better on the fan output and get brighter as output voltage increases.

The benefits.
  • Simple to use. Plug your fans in, provide power and PWM and the fans will adjust according to CPU temperature.
  • Easy to tuck out of sight.
  • Can be mounted on the chassis.
  • Available with some cases fitted and also available in a neat plastic box.
  • Energy efficient.


The limitations, drawbacks and potential issues.
There is no adjustment that can be made to the output directly, all must be done in software, or by changing the fan load to effect a desired speed.

The hub is set up to work with an ideal load, of around 6 or 7 fans, which is around 15W. Too much above or below this load compromises the way the hub operates. With just one fan you will get 9v -12v. At a much higher load you’ll get 3v-10.5v for the same duty cycle. See table and graph for detail.




Different fans will run at different speeds depending on their individual characteristic and there is no easy way to get feedback from the hub to the motherboard headers, only the white fan header feeds back.

At higher loads it was noticed that some voltage spikes occurred with the switching of the circuit, this may cause premature failure of the circuitry and produce extra heat. The image below shows a nice smooth trace with 4 fans, then the lower shows some spikes with 11 fans.



The Mosfet package can get very hot when a high load of fans is attached. With a load of 24W and 12 fans the Mosfet was too hot to touch after a few seconds at 50% duty cycle. This may cause premature failure. At low duty cycle the temperature was reduced. It may be possible to heatsink the mosfet, however it is a very small package measuring only 7mm x 5mm.

Without care it will be possible to overload your PWM fan header. Ideally 12v or ground should be disconnected from CPU_Fan lead if using external power source but this is not done automatically.

Not really suitable for 4 pin fans.

No LEDs.

Testing
  • For the purposes of this test I used a collection of 3 pin 12v fans I’ve accumulated over the years.
  • I used a Gould OS300 oscilloscope to view output at the fan header.
  • I used a 555 timer based 22000kHz variable PWM circuit to simulate the PWM.
  • I also used a linear regulated 12v power supply which outputs a solid 12.3v no matter what load I throw at it.
  • I measured current using a Mastech MS8268 DMM and voltage using Isotech IDM600 DMM.
  • I estimated 20%, 50% PWM using the scale on the oscilloscope and actual max PWM is within a 1 or 2% of full 100% PWM.

Conclusion
I found the Phanteks PWM hub behaviour just as I’d expect from such a simple device. I was a little disappointed with the heat generated at higher loads but feel that multiple hubs could be employed to get around this issue. The circuit itself wouldn’t load down the PWM signal too much so it’s likely that 2 or 3 of these things would work just fine. Ideally Phanteks could have used a mosfet on the input, but to keep costs down they went with an NPN transistor.

I’d really like to see a version of this with temperature related LEDs and an adjustment to compensate for the amount of fans.

Hub supplied by doyll
Published layout by doyll
Edited by doyll - 12/5/16 at 6:13am
post #66 of 1132
Quote:
Originally Posted by doyll View Post

Post # 15 has Silverstone and Puget Systems data on how grills affect airflow and noise.

They work fine as case fans .. if you can mount them. I do not have most of the Phanteks fans to test, but by their specs they are all similar. Keep in mind when fans are used in normal applications (case, cooler, radiator) the airflow & pressure ratings are rather ambiguous .. fans with lower CFM but higher mmH2O ratings will often perform better than fans with higher CFM and lower mmH2O ratings. This is because the mmH2O rating means more airflow against resistance because CFM rating is with no resistance .. our use of fans always has resistance.


Sorry, was not actually chasing bunnies. biggrin.gif

Yeah, I'm slowly learning about all that lol. I wish I knew more of the science behind it when I bought the fans for my gaming rig. They perform just fine, I just could have make it quieter lol. No biggie.

In that case, I'd say the phanteks work fine. I'll have to find some texting data, i think there is some on SPCR.

Alas, clearly I did not see post 15. Somehow. I'll give that a read.
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Deepthought
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post #67 of 1132
Quote:
Originally Posted by doyll View Post

Wow! The one's I've seen had the PSU over the CPU exhausting out the back. The way you have it setup, either way you have the PSU airflow will have heated exhaust being drawn into intake .. or is the fan over your CPU cooler exhaust with CPU fan pulling air out of cooler?

The fan on cpu is intake--> blows air onto the heatsink, while the side fan intakes air from outside into the case--directly facing the heatsink/fan.
The psu exhaust is in the front with the help of an exhaust 120mm slim fan.

Other exhaust points are the back and the top front-I put a filter mesh on --like this




I guess it's the overclock that's causing the high temps. Maybe I should try delidding my humble G3258.
post #68 of 1132
Thread Starter 
Honestly 72c is not all that bad. What does it max at in normal use:

Have you checked the actual temperature of the cooler intake air? I've seen these pancake / downflow coolers somehow manage to ingest their own heated exhaust even when another fan is blowing air right at them. Might be worth checking just to be sure. Think the thermometer I use is in 2nd or 3rd post.

PWM Fan Independent Speed Curve
Fan rpm is not a fixed ration or percentage of PWM signal. The PWM signal to rpm is part of the programming in PWM circuitry in fan.
Here are some examples. Black graph line (top line in chart) is fan rpm; PWM % is shown across bottom of chart. Notice how all of these fans are flat-lining at idle at different minimum PWM% signal. Also notice how their respective PWM% to rpm is not a the same progression for each fan .. it is not a linear progression, but is instead a custom progression that is programmed into each fan's internal PWM circuit. wink.gif


All graphs are from Thermalbench.com fan tests and reviews.
Edited by doyll - 1/29/17 at 12:49am
post #69 of 1132
Before when it was in an matx case-Max temp when gaming (Dying Light), it's around 59 celsius according to HWiNFO 64 sensors.Now, it's 72 that's the max with benchmarks and games.

Usual tasks like watching movies, browsing etc..is 32-34.

ASUS suite III Mobo utility reports 10 deg less than HWinfo rolleyes.gif I can make the temp lower by maxing the fans (via mobo fan tuning)) but the noise will be too much.


Re:
"ingest their own heated exhaust"- I wish I could see a diagram for this.
If I flip the cpu fan to exhaust air, then I will have to do the same to the side fan.No intake fan altogether! doh.gif

I'm considering another cooler like H5 so that I can have the flow of air in one direction only, keep the exhaust in front and re orient H5 so it's blowing air towards the front too.

Anyways, back to the original question--What happens when a psu fan is flipped? and there is a fan blowing into the exhaust/back of psu.
Is it going to be hotter inside the psu and a much cooler case temp? Thanks doyll for your input.
post #70 of 1132
I'll try to check the actual temp of the cooler.I will check your guides.
The only warm part to the touch is the front. I believe the front fan is exhausting heat mainly from the psu and video card

I imagine the intake to be cool.
I live in a cool place.Ground floor with 2 apartments above .
It never gets hot inside the house.
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