Overclock.net › Forums › Cooling › Air Cooling › * * Ways to Better Cooling; Airflow, Cooler & Fan Data..*
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

* * Ways to Better Cooling; Airflow, Cooler & Fan Data..* - Page 65

post #641 of 1039
Didn't want to make a thread (yet) for a short question, and most of you guys hang out in this thread anyway...

Do you think something like this might work, or are the fans at the top moot? Anyone got any experience with something similar? Mind you it's still not done and parts used are just placeholders to make sure there's enough room inside.


Roided midgit
(10 items)
 
Midgit
(12 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
3770k Asus P8Z77I-Deluxe MSI Radeon RX 480 GAMING X Crucial Ballistix XT 
Hard DriveCoolingCoolingCooling
Crucial M500 Noctua NH-D14 Noctua NF-F12 PWM Noctua NF-F12 PWM 
CoolingCoolingPowerCase
Noctua NF-B9 PWM Noctua NF-B9 PWM Corsair SF600 Fractal Node 304 
  hide details  
Reply
Roided midgit
(10 items)
 
Midgit
(12 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
3770k Asus P8Z77I-Deluxe MSI Radeon RX 480 GAMING X Crucial Ballistix XT 
Hard DriveCoolingCoolingCooling
Crucial M500 Noctua NH-D14 Noctua NF-F12 PWM Noctua NF-F12 PWM 
CoolingCoolingPowerCase
Noctua NF-B9 PWM Noctua NF-B9 PWM Corsair SF600 Fractal Node 304 
  hide details  
Reply
post #642 of 1039
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by EAl3x View Post

Thank you for the responses guys, you've been great.
What is your room temp?
More importantly, what is the temperature of air going into PH-TC14PE before and during your tests? We have to know the cooler intake air temp to know how well the cooler is performing. This is the one and the only air temperature that is important.

Cooler intake and room air temperatures are not the same. Think of your computer working hard in a room as your kitchen when you are cooking a big dinner in your home. Is your kitchen the same temperature as your family room or as your bedroom? Sure, it's probably about the same when no cooking is being done, but when you start cooking the added heat from stove, oven, etc increase the temperature of the kitchen making it warmer than other room in the house.

Component intake temps in a working computer are typically 10-20+c warmer than the room. The better the case flows cool air to component is dependent not only on how much air the case is flowing but how it is flowing. The case must flow air along paths / channels that keep component heated exhaust from mixing into the cool intake air and heating it up. If iti is not the air going to components is being pre-heated and every degree warmer this airflow is basically a degree warmer the component is.

If the air going into cooler is 32c with the CPU is 72c in a 22c room and we lower the cooler intake air temp to 25c, the CPU will be 65c. If cooler intkae is 38c in a 22c room with 72c CPU temp and we lower it to 25c the CPU temp will be about 59c!

I know this is likely the first time you have heard this, but it is what is happening inside of your case. Many reviewers think testing in a case using room ambient is 'real world use', but it is only 'real world' for people with the same exact system in the same exact placement. Their testing is not comparing cooler performance, but instead comparing how their system performs with different coolers in their room. To know how the cooler are performing requires the use of cooler intake air temp instead of room ambient or case intake air temp.

The stock Enthoo Pro PH-F200SP fan gives terrible airflow. A single PH-F140SP does better, and 2x PH-F140SP intakes will likely lower your CPU temp by about 10c
post #643 of 1039
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loladinas View Post

Didn't want to make a thread (yet) for a short question, and most of you guys hang out in this thread anyway...

Do you think something like this might work, or are the fans at the top moot? Anyone got any experience with something similar? Mind you it's still not done and parts used are just placeholders to make sure there's enough room inside.


I'm not sure what you are doing, but likely they are redundant (or moot tongue.gif )
"Airflow" is "air displacement", so if the bottom intake fans are up to the task, the top fans are not needed. Maybe put one in middle of CPU cooler with divider between GPU and CPU would move as much air and make overall noise levels lower.

Is the fan in black box on the side the PSU? If it is, I would move PSU up so it's exhaust vent is in top of case. Then make a shroud below from bottom intake on that side to GPU intake.

I'm assuming these are TY-147A SQ or TY-143 SQ fans. biggrin.gif

Case is about 320x320x200mm (assuming mobo is ATX)? 165mm CPU clearance requires motherboard tray to be 181mm from side cover .. leaving 19mm behide motherboard tray. Might want a little more for cable management and SSD / HDD. Obviously case will have at least 35mm feet to allow airflow to bottom intake fans.
post #644 of 1039
Quote:
Originally Posted by doyll View Post

I'm not sure what you are doing, but likely they are redundant (or moot tongue.gif )
"Airflow" is "air displacement", so if the bottom intake fans are up to the task, the top fans are not needed. Maybe put one in middle of CPU cooler with divider between GPU and CPU would move as much air and make overall noise levels lower.

Is the fan in black box on the side the PSU? If it is, I would move PSU up so it's exhaust vent is in top of case. Then make a shroud below from bottom intake on that side to GPU intake.

I'm assuming these are TY-147A SQ or TY-143 SQ fans. biggrin.gif

Case is about 320x320x200mm (assuming mobo is ATX)? 165mm CPU clearance requires motherboard tray to be 181mm from side cover .. leaving 19mm behide motherboard tray. Might want a little more for cable management and SSD / HDD. Obviously case will have at least 35mm feet to allow airflow to bottom intake fans.
The idea was to boost the pressure a bit, as its pitifully low on any fan running at 300RPM.
It's 28x28x18, not including the thickness of outer panels, and the cable routing shouldn't be an issue. There should only be two cables from PSU to motherboard, as I was thinking of only using a single m2 drive in the system and a GPU powered from the slot only.
There should be 8mm (6mm standoff + 2mm thick crossbars/mounting tray) of clearance behind the motherboard, just to make sure that nothing touches the side panel and that's it. 2 + 6 + 1.6 + 7 + 160 = 176,6. Should fit and leave me a couple millimeters wiggle room.
Can't move the PSU up - there's no room up top. Fans span the entire case length. PSU is likely going to spend most of it's time with its fan off, so I thought I could do the whole 'two birds one stone' thing with the fans up top.
The NH-D14 is only used for scaling reasons(same as GPU, just making sure there's enough room for a double slot card) as there was already a model of it made. I plan to put something a bit more suited for passive use - say Le Grand Macho (supposedly only 159mm tall as well).

It still needs a bit of work to make it clearer what I'm thinking of doing whistle.gif
Edited by Loladinas - 8/29/16 at 1:43am
Roided midgit
(10 items)
 
Midgit
(12 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
3770k Asus P8Z77I-Deluxe MSI Radeon RX 480 GAMING X Crucial Ballistix XT 
Hard DriveCoolingCoolingCooling
Crucial M500 Noctua NH-D14 Noctua NF-F12 PWM Noctua NF-F12 PWM 
CoolingCoolingPowerCase
Noctua NF-B9 PWM Noctua NF-B9 PWM Corsair SF600 Fractal Node 304 
  hide details  
Reply
Roided midgit
(10 items)
 
Midgit
(12 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
3770k Asus P8Z77I-Deluxe MSI Radeon RX 480 GAMING X Crucial Ballistix XT 
Hard DriveCoolingCoolingCooling
Crucial M500 Noctua NH-D14 Noctua NF-F12 PWM Noctua NF-F12 PWM 
CoolingCoolingPowerCase
Noctua NF-B9 PWM Noctua NF-B9 PWM Corsair SF600 Fractal Node 304 
  hide details  
Reply
post #645 of 1039
Quote:
Originally Posted by doyll View Post

What is your room temp?
More importantly, what is the temperature of air going into PH-TC14PE before and during your tests? We have to know the cooler intake air temp to know how well the cooler is performing. This is the one and the only air temperature that is important.

Cooler intake and room air temperatures are not the same. Think of your computer working hard in a room as your kitchen when you are cooking a big dinner in your home. Is your kitchen the same temperature as your family room or as your bedroom? Sure, it's probably about the same when no cooking is being done, but when you start cooking the added heat from stove, oven, etc increase the temperature of the kitchen making it warmer than other room in the house.

Component intake temps in a working computer are typically 10-20+c warmer than the room. The better the case flows cool air to component is dependent not only on how much air the case is flowing but how it is flowing. The case must flow air along paths / channels that keep component heated exhaust from mixing into the cool intake air and heating it up. If iti is not the air going to components is being pre-heated and every degree warmer this airflow is basically a degree warmer the component is.

If the air going into cooler is 32c with the CPU is 72c in a 22c room and we lower the cooler intake air temp to 25c, the CPU will be 65c. If cooler intkae is 38c in a 22c room with 72c CPU temp and we lower it to 25c the CPU temp will be about 59c!

I know this is likely the first time you have heard this, but it is what is happening inside of your case. Many reviewers think testing in a case using room ambient is 'real world use', but it is only 'real world' for people with the same exact system in the same exact placement. Their testing is not comparing cooler performance, but instead comparing how their system performs with different coolers in their room. To know how the cooler are performing requires the use of cooler intake air temp instead of room ambient or case intake air temp.

The stock Enthoo Pro PH-F200SP fan gives terrible airflow. A single PH-F140SP does better, and 2x PH-F140SP intakes will likely lower your CPU temp by about 10c

My room temperature is 26 C. I will replace the front fan with two PH-F140SPs and maybe grab some custom sleeved cables.
post #646 of 1039
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by EAl3x View Post

My room temperature is 26 C. I will replace the front fan with two PH-F140SPs and maybe grab some custom sleeved cables.
26c is on the warm side .. by 3-4c. wink.gif

2x 140mm intakes will make a significant difference, probably quite a big difference. thumb.gif

But the best way is to know what the airflow temps are into coolers so we can compare them to room ambient. Please look at 2nd post in this thread and 'grab' a low cost digital indoor/outdoor wire sensor thermometer and set it up like in 2nd post. Thermometer is cheaper than a single custom sleeved cable and while it doesn't look as nice is way more functional because then we will know just how warm your cooler intake air actually is wink.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loladinas View Post

The idea was to boost the pressure a bit, as its pitifully low on any fan running at 300RPM.
It's 28x28x18, not including the thickness of outer panels, and the cable routing shouldn't be an issue. There should only be two cables from PSU to motherboard, as I was thinking of only using a single m2 drive in the system and a GPU powered from the slot only.
There should be 8mm (6mm standoff + 2mm thick crossbars/mounting tray) of clearance behind the motherboard, just to make sure that nothing touches the side panel and that's it. 2 + 6 + 1.6 + 7 + 160 = 176,6. Should fit and leave me a couple millimeters wiggle room.
Can't move the PSU up - there's no room up top. Fans span the entire case length. PSU is likely going to spend most of it's time with its fan off, so I thought I could do the whole 'two birds one stone' thing with the fans up top.
The NH-D14 is only used for scaling reasons(same as GPU, just making sure there's enough room for a double slot card) as there was already a model of it made. I plan to put something a bit more suited for passive use - say Le Grand Macho (supposedly only 159mm tall as well).

It still needs a bit of work to make it clearer what I'm thinking of doing whistle.gif
It's a good starting rendition.
Having fans away from vent openings generally means lower sound levels, so I would probably use fan on cooler instead of cae exhaust. Bottom intakes are 'baffled' but whatever case sets on, so as long as it's not a reflective surface it lowers fan sound level. Just brain-storming here, but it is possible to use only a fan on cooler with no intake or exhaust, especially if CPU side of case is it's own airflow duct. This would probably lower audible sound even if fan was spinning a little faster. wink.gif Similar principle could be applied to GPU side of case with fan mounted about half way between bottom and GPU.

I'm assuming you will have filters on the intakes, so having some room between them and bottom grill will likely lower sound levels as well.

Keep in mind while the Le Grand Macho is 159mm tall, it is 150mm wide so 70mm center of CPU toward PCIe socket and 80mm toward side of case.

Obviously the case has to be bigger than 280 or fans will not fit side by side. I've done lots of fabrication in R&D work. Always leave 5-10mm clearance if possible. 140mm fans are often 141-142mm wink.gif

Like I said, this is brainstorming ideas, not that all are the only or best way of doing it. tongue.gif
post #647 of 1039
Quote:
Originally Posted by doyll View Post

It's a good starting rendition.
Having fans away from vent openings generally means lower sound levels, so I would probably use fan on cooler instead of cae exhaust. Bottom intakes are 'baffled' but whatever case sets on, so as long as it's not a reflective surface it lowers fan sound level. Just brain-storming here, but it is possible to use only a fan on cooler with no intake or exhaust, especially if CPU side of case is it's own airflow duct. This would probably lower audible sound even if fan was spinning a little faster. wink.gif Similar principle could be applied to GPU side of case with fan mounted about half way between bottom and GPU.

I'm assuming you will have filters on the intakes, so having some room between them and bottom grill will likely lower sound levels as well.

Keep in mind while the Le Grand Macho is 159mm tall, it is 150mm wide so 70mm center of CPU toward PCIe socket and 80mm toward side of case.

Obviously the case has to be bigger than 280 or fans will not fit side by side. I've done lots of fabrication in R&D work. Always leave 5-10mm clearance if possible. 140mm fans are often 141-142mm wink.gif

Like I said, this is brainstorming ideas, not that all are the only or best way of doing it. tongue.gif
Yeah, had a bit of brainfart, it's 30x30x18. There's 20mm clearance between the edge of the motherboard and the front panel. I don't plan on using any filters at all, only a mesh on top of the case (so I don't accidentally jam something into the fans), that should be about 8mm away from the fan blades.
Edited by Loladinas - 8/29/16 at 2:58am
Roided midgit
(10 items)
 
Midgit
(12 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
3770k Asus P8Z77I-Deluxe MSI Radeon RX 480 GAMING X Crucial Ballistix XT 
Hard DriveCoolingCoolingCooling
Crucial M500 Noctua NH-D14 Noctua NF-F12 PWM Noctua NF-F12 PWM 
CoolingCoolingPowerCase
Noctua NF-B9 PWM Noctua NF-B9 PWM Corsair SF600 Fractal Node 304 
  hide details  
Reply
Roided midgit
(10 items)
 
Midgit
(12 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
3770k Asus P8Z77I-Deluxe MSI Radeon RX 480 GAMING X Crucial Ballistix XT 
Hard DriveCoolingCoolingCooling
Crucial M500 Noctua NH-D14 Noctua NF-F12 PWM Noctua NF-F12 PWM 
CoolingCoolingPowerCase
Noctua NF-B9 PWM Noctua NF-B9 PWM Corsair SF600 Fractal Node 304 
  hide details  
Reply
post #648 of 1039
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loladinas View Post

Yeah, had a bit of brainfart, it's 30x30x18. There's 20mm clearance between the edge of the motherboard and the front panel. I don't plan on using any filters at all, only a mesh on top of the case (so I don't accidentally jam something into the fans), that should be about 8mm away from the fan blades.
Sounds like you got it pretty well figured out. thumb.gif
I know all my comments may sound like nit-picking, but I'm only trying to help you catch any possible design problems before you build. Even on 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 10 generation there always seem to be little things we would find that could be done to make product better or easier to build and use. wink.gif
post #649 of 1039
Nah, I'm far from having it all figured out, but I'm not rushing into it. Probably going to spend a couple more months adding bits to it, on and off. For example, your comment about sound from bottom fans bouncing back off a reflective surface (a hardwood desk in my case) made me think about building a baffle box (as per DIYperks custom case) with soft material on the bottom, instead of using simple rubber feet. I was planning on adding about 5 centimeters of clearance for the bottom intake, but I don't want the case to get too big.

And I'm still not sure about exact fan placement (maybe I could move them further to one side, leaving more room to run cables/connectors on the other side), how rigid the motherboard tray would be, how tight can I bend those 20x20x2 aluminum 90o bars, and so on...
Roided midgit
(10 items)
 
Midgit
(12 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
3770k Asus P8Z77I-Deluxe MSI Radeon RX 480 GAMING X Crucial Ballistix XT 
Hard DriveCoolingCoolingCooling
Crucial M500 Noctua NH-D14 Noctua NF-F12 PWM Noctua NF-F12 PWM 
CoolingCoolingPowerCase
Noctua NF-B9 PWM Noctua NF-B9 PWM Corsair SF600 Fractal Node 304 
  hide details  
Reply
Roided midgit
(10 items)
 
Midgit
(12 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
3770k Asus P8Z77I-Deluxe MSI Radeon RX 480 GAMING X Crucial Ballistix XT 
Hard DriveCoolingCoolingCooling
Crucial M500 Noctua NH-D14 Noctua NF-F12 PWM Noctua NF-F12 PWM 
CoolingCoolingPowerCase
Noctua NF-B9 PWM Noctua NF-B9 PWM Corsair SF600 Fractal Node 304 
  hide details  
Reply
post #650 of 1039
Thread Starter 
When I was doing fabrication most of the joints were MIG or TIG welded, but on something like this I would consider using one of the modern glues now available. Maybe find some 3 sided corner pieces and glue the aluminum angle onto them. I don't know of any for inside use on extruded aluminum angle, but the idea is used a lot on outside corners of old steamer trunks and commercial amplifier and speaker cases like used for touring bands.
Something like this


These corners could have screws from cover panels going into them for even more strength.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Air Cooling
Overclock.net › Forums › Cooling › Air Cooling › * * Ways to Better Cooling; Airflow, Cooler & Fan Data..*