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post #9761 of 10638
Hello

Offset shifts the stock VID table by the amount entered in the offset field.

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post #9762 of 10638
Quote:
Originally Posted by Praz View Post

Hello

Offset shifts the stock VID table by the amount entered in the offset field.

I knew that's how it worked in Offset voltage mode... I thought Adaptive used that field differently.

The part that's confusing and unintuitive to me is that the sum of the offset and "add'l turbo" fields result in the max applied voltage, even though only a small portion of it is "additional". If it were truly "additional", then to get to 1.27v you could say 0.001v offset, which gets you to 0.737v (for example), and then "additional" 0.533v to get it to 1.27v total. But it's not... to get it to 1.27v, you need to basically include the default auto idle voltage in your "additional turbo" setting.

I understand the desire to make the math easier (since the "auto idle voltage" isn't a fixed value), but really, seems to me it'd be a lot more intuitive to just have an "Offset" setting and a "Maximum turbo voltage", rather than having this odd "sum of offset + additional turbo = maximum" equation that links two voltage values that don't really seem to actually have anything to do with one another.
Edited by Qwinn - 7/28/16 at 4:45pm
    
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post #9763 of 10638
Hello

Additional Turbo Voltage is the actual desired voltage at the max set multiplier. It also is only active when turbo multipliers are in use. The offset voltage is applied the same regardless if it is set from the offset or adaptive option.
post #9764 of 10638
Quote:
Originally Posted by Praz View Post

Hello

Additional Turbo Voltage is the actual desired voltage at the max set multiplier.

Hmm, okay, if that's the case, it's the desired voltage "pre-offset" then, which is unintuitive because in the BIOS settings it lists the offset first. Because if you set things like this:

CPU Core Voltage Offset: 0.030v
Additional Turbo Mode CPU Core Voltage: 1.27v

Then the BIOS reads:

Total Adaptive Mode CPU Core Voltage: 1.30v

And that "Total" is what you'll *actually* get as the maximum voltage, I'm fairly certain. (If that's where I'm going wrong, please let me know).

So to make your response complete, it needs to be modified to "Additional Turbo Voltage is the actual desired voltage, prior to applying the offset voltage, at the max set multiplier." Correct?

Because the way you stated it is what I said above I'd consider intuitive: Have the second voltage entered when setting up to adaptive be the true desired maximum voltage at the max set multiplier, -after- the offset has already been applied. Cause the way I see it, your offset (which as you said just shifts the entire vid table) really isn't related at all to what you truly want your maximum voltage to be, but the way it's set up, you have to take their sum to get the actual maximum voltage you really want. Am I making any sense here? :/

I guess what I'm really saying is, the setting: "Additional Turbe Mode Core CPU Voltage", should be eliminated, and "Total Adaptive Mode CPU Core Voltage" should be able to be entered directly. Were it listed that way, I think it would be a lot less confusing to the average person. Just a suggestion.
Edited by Qwinn - 7/28/16 at 5:04pm
    
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post #9765 of 10638
Hello

Additional Turbo Voltage is an extension of the stock VID table. Offset Voltage is applied to the full range of the VID table so is also applied to the Additional Turbo Voltage value. As a side note to all this the desired voltage for the Additional Turbo Voltage cannot be lower than the voltage programmed into the VID table at the top end.
post #9766 of 10638
Ok, thanks Praz. That does confirm that I'm finally understanding what the settings do.

So, the following is no longer a request for explanation of how it works, it is (as I've also been trying to do) merely a suggestion on how to make the labels on these settings more intuitive to the beginning or even moderately knowledgeable overclocker.

I think when the average person reads a label like "Additional Turbo Mode Voltage", a common English reading of that would lead one to believe it is the ADDITIONAL voltage you want to apply to your normal *idle* voltage in order to reach maximum clocks. I don't think anyone would naturally interpret it as "Maximum desired voltage prior to applying the offset you wished to apply to the entire vid table in the previous setting", even if they know all about the vid table, never mind if they don't know about it in detail.

As it stands, to get to your true desired maximum voltage, your "additional turbo voltage" value has to include your normal, non turbo, idle voltage (which on my chip is about 0.736v). That portion of that voltage value isn't "turbo" at all, it is part of the base voltage needed to keep the machine running at lowest clocks. This makes the "additional turbo voltage" label, I maintain, very unintuitive and confusing.

I would suggest that Adaptive Offset be configured in the BIOS as follows:

CPU Core Voltage Offset (unchanged from current)
Total Adaptive Voltage at Maximum Turbo clocks (where you would enter the value that you wind up getting in "Total Adaptive Mode CPU Core Voltage" through the sum of the two current entries).

The computer can easily subtract the offset from that entered value to get what is currently "Additional Turbo Mode Voltage" should it need to apply that particular value in the inner workings of the BIOS. And it would actually reflect, in common English interpretation, what it's actually doing without need for an interpreter (and while your interpretation has been excellent, and it is appreciated, wouldn't you rather not have to repeat it so often? smile.gif

Thanks for clearing it up, at any rate. If someone else out there understands what I'm trying to get at, or doesn't for that matter and thinks it's self-explanatory as it is, do please chime in, I'd like to confirm if I'm just stupid (or not) either way, heh.
    
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post #9767 of 10638
ANYWAYS... now that my understanding is sorted, I realize that in my last two attempts on adaptive cache settings, I had the offset/turbo settings flipped. I reversed them and, surprise, I *did* boot successfully. Odd results though, and I'm doing a backup now so I can do more testing. But preliminary results show that jpmboy is right... the "additional turbo" doesn't seem to be doing much.

My normal OC in offset mode is +0.27v. In practice, this results in lowest idle cache voltage of about 0.990v, and 1.21v at load.

When I tried adaptive with offset +0.27v and turbo 0.94v, I got the exact same results (which is actually to be expected).

But when I tried adaptive with offset +0.17v and turbo 1.04v, I got 0.9v at idle and about 1.144v under semi-load, meaning during the first few minutes after boot when cache was running at 4.2Ghz but not really a heavy load. Which is CLOSE to what you'd expect by just running offset mode at +0.17v, except that I'd expect the load voltage to max at around 1.11v (my previous max voltage - the 0.01v I lowered my offset by), not 1.144v.

I'm going to try running with a higher additional turbo voltage and see if that increases that 1.144v cap at all. I expect it won't work and I'll crash under a real load. But then, since this adaptive version seems to be giving me about +0.03v higher at load than I'd expect, I'm going to try adaptive with +0.240v offset and see what it maxes out at.

Will report later.
Edited by Qwinn - 7/28/16 at 6:36pm
    
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post #9768 of 10638
Ok, now this is interesting. The additional turbo field *does* have an effect, but not nearly as much as it should... in fact, it seems like it's effect is between 1/6 and 1/10th of what it should be i.e., as if maybe a decimal place got shifted to the right somewhere.

When I ran it with +0.24v offset, 1.02v add'l turbo (for total 1.26v), it maxed out at 1.206v under AIDA stress test load.

When I upped the add'l turbo to 1.06v (for total 1.3v), now it maxes out at 1.212v under load, and the average is running higher as well (mostly over 1.2v instead of usually just under it).

Remember, in plain offset mode, I need 0.27v to get 1.212v under load.

It mostly tracks with the result I got before, when I lowered my offset from +0.27v to 0.17v, with an additional turbo of 1.04v, my maximum voltage only dropped 0.06v instead of the 0.1v you'd expect if turbo wasn't working at all.

It makes me *want* to try running with something like a 0.1v offset and a big whopping "additional cache turbo voltage" setting that actually gets me to 1.212v under load, but that would probably require getting my "total adaptive cache voltage" according to the BIOS to something crazy (north of 1.5v), which is more than a little scary, in case it's the voltage readings that I'm getting that are possibly wrong somehow. Is that possible, or can I rely on the numbers of *actual* voltage that Aida is giving me?
Edited by Qwinn - 7/28/16 at 7:02pm
    
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post #9769 of 10638
Quote:
Originally Posted by Qwinn View Post

Ok, I must have been misunderstanding how adaptive voltage works. I thought it went like this:

1) The "offset voltage" when using adaptive is basically the suggested minimum voltage. If this suggested voltage is too low to idle, the system will "Auto" it up to whatever it needs to to work properly.
2) The "additional turbo", when added to the offset, becomes the maximum voltage to be applied.

So, when I use 0.001v offset for my core voltage, and 1.269v for the add'l turbo, I wind up running at around 0.736v on idle and it will boost up to 1.27v.

Now, the way you guys are describing it, it sounds like you're saying that if I changed that to offset 0.3v and add'l turbo to 0.97v, I'd still max at 1.27v but I'd be idling at around 1.036v?

So basically the "offset" is applied to the minimum auto voltage, which is somewhere in the 0.736v range... but that minimum auto voltage does not appear anywhere at all in the "offset + add'l turbo" = "max voltage" equation. So a large chunk of the voltage I specify in my "add'l turbo" is not turbo boost at all, but actually represents the base 0.736v minimum auto voltage. Am I understanding this correctly now?

if so, man, not intuitive...
Sticking with Strap 100:
With Adaptive, For VCORE offset is applied across the entire VID line (at every multiplier) Turbo is only applied on Turbo multipliers, and not on any multiplier below the first turbo multi (which will vary by CPU). So if the VID line is asking for 1.00 volt and you have an offset of 0.3V, the VR will provide 1.3V... and if the request is made while a turbo multiplier is called, any Additional Turbo voltage is added to that. If you are doing light work the turbo component is not applied and the vcore follows the VID using Auto rules - assuming you are running Adaptive with offset on Auto and ALL the necessary voltage at the Max Clock in Turbo. This was not possible not that long ago - What's nice about bios implementation now is that unlike doing this on my Sandybridge 2700K, the bios will set the MAx voltage. With the 2700K/Z87... you have to pay attention at the OS level to get a handle on the VID when adding up the values to get a total vcore under load in the OS. "auto" on either setting was did strange things (Asrock, anyway) Much more convenient now.

Cache is a separate problem, since it's base frequency is coupled to the Ram frequency (= 50% of ram freq, eg with 3400 ram it idle at 1700, 3200 idles cache at 1600 and so on).
Quote:
Originally Posted by tistou77 View Post

It does not work for me (on the R5E or R5E10 i guess) but would like (it work with the Deluxe)
I prefer ~ 0.9V to idle (Adaptive Mode) than 1.10V (Offset Mode)

If Intel updates for it to work (fix the bug), so that Asus makes the update

I'm not sure the word "bug" is appropriate. Maybe @Praz can explain this better....
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post #9770 of 10638
Yes, the additional turbo field is definitely doing something, just not at the rate you'd expect.

With 0.19v offset, 1.2v additional turbo, I get maximum 1.197v under Aida load.

With 0.19v offset, 1.0v additional turbo, I get maximum 1.147v under Aida load.

So at least around the 1-1.2v range of additional turbo, for every 0.04v you raise it, you only get 0.01v added to your actual maximum voltage.

The *low* end of the voltage behaves exactly as you'd expect, though. Dropping offset from 0.27v to 0.19v causes the idle cache voltage to drop by the 0.08v you'd expect (in my case, from around 0.990v to 0.910v).

Given that information, I believe I could set up adaptive voltage in such a way that I'd get the same maximum voltage under load and a much lower idle voltage than I can get in offset mode (which is the whole point of adaptive). Again, though, this would require the "total adaptive cache voltage" in the BIOS to get crazy high, and I'm not really anxious to try that. That said, when I tried the 0.19v offset, 1.0v additional turbo that only resulted in 1.147v under load, I crashed quite quickly, which I would expect at 4.2 Ghz cache clocks if the readings are accurate, and it didn't crash at the higher setting, so it's *behaving* like the Aida voltage readings are correct.
Edited by Qwinn - 7/28/16 at 7:28pm
    
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