Overclock.net › Forums › Intel › Intel CPUs › == Haswell-E Overclock Leaderboard & Owners Club ==
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

== Haswell-E Overclock Leaderboard & Owners Club == - Page 1374

post #13731 of 22289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug2507 View Post

1.8v is way less than the mems can take (sammy) and well within safe IMC limits.

bull sheet

and just reckless to suggest that to someone for anything other than flash bench use. run it 24/7 for some months then post back, bring pictures. wink.gif
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
(and yes, I know this post will probably earn me an infraction redface.gif )

Edited by Jpmboy - 10/22/15 at 7:59am
x99
(22 items)
 
Z370
(8 items)
 
x299
(18 items)
 
CPUCPUMotherboardGraphics
i7 5960X i7 6950X Asus Rampage V Extreme 10 2 GTX Titan X Pascal 
RAMHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
GSkill 3200c14 TZs 8x8GB @ 3400c13 Intel 750 NVMe 400GB 2x Plextor SSD 256 Raid 0 (Win 7) Samsung NVMe 950 Pro M.2 
Optical DriveCoolingCoolingCooling
Plextor 810 2x XSPC RX360 Koolance 380i D5 
CoolingOSOSOS
Aquaero 6 Windows 10 x64  Windows 7 Pro Linux Mint 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
Seiki 50" 4K monitor (720P-2160i) 240-30Hz Das Keyboard Model S Pro Corsair AX1200 Case Labs SM8 
MouseAudio
Steelseries Rival Ultimate Ears TF10 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
8700K ASUS Maximus X Apex GTX 1080 2x8 GB G.Skill 4400c19 
Hard DriveCoolingOSCase
Samsung 960 Pro 360Rad + Chiller Win 10 HWBOT OBT 
CPUCPUMotherboardGraphics
7740X 7980XE ASUS Rampage Vi Apex 2x Nvidia Titan Xp SLi 
RAMHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
G.Skill 3600c15 2x8GB kits Intel 900p WD Raptor 1T Plextor SSDs Raid 0 
Optical DriveCoolingOSOS
Plextor DVD/BR R/W (very) Custom Water Windows 10 Pro Windows 7 Pro 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
ASUS 144Hz Ducky Corsair 1500i Microcool Benchetto 101 
MouseAudio
Steelseries Rival Ultimate ears TF10s (IEMs) 
  hide details  
Reply
x99
(22 items)
 
Z370
(8 items)
 
x299
(18 items)
 
CPUCPUMotherboardGraphics
i7 5960X i7 6950X Asus Rampage V Extreme 10 2 GTX Titan X Pascal 
RAMHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
GSkill 3200c14 TZs 8x8GB @ 3400c13 Intel 750 NVMe 400GB 2x Plextor SSD 256 Raid 0 (Win 7) Samsung NVMe 950 Pro M.2 
Optical DriveCoolingCoolingCooling
Plextor 810 2x XSPC RX360 Koolance 380i D5 
CoolingOSOSOS
Aquaero 6 Windows 10 x64  Windows 7 Pro Linux Mint 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
Seiki 50" 4K monitor (720P-2160i) 240-30Hz Das Keyboard Model S Pro Corsair AX1200 Case Labs SM8 
MouseAudio
Steelseries Rival Ultimate Ears TF10 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
8700K ASUS Maximus X Apex GTX 1080 2x8 GB G.Skill 4400c19 
Hard DriveCoolingOSCase
Samsung 960 Pro 360Rad + Chiller Win 10 HWBOT OBT 
CPUCPUMotherboardGraphics
7740X 7980XE ASUS Rampage Vi Apex 2x Nvidia Titan Xp SLi 
RAMHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
G.Skill 3600c15 2x8GB kits Intel 900p WD Raptor 1T Plextor SSDs Raid 0 
Optical DriveCoolingOSOS
Plextor DVD/BR R/W (very) Custom Water Windows 10 Pro Windows 7 Pro 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
ASUS 144Hz Ducky Corsair 1500i Microcool Benchetto 101 
MouseAudio
Steelseries Rival Ultimate ears TF10s (IEMs) 
  hide details  
Reply
post #13732 of 22289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silent Scone View Post

Doug is actually very experienced

JP worded it better...lol..
I was meaning what he was saying, you guys helped with non overboard settings.

Anyone who can set something that high and have it stable is most defiantly experienced, never doubted that, he just got a little upset with what you guys were saying like you were picking.
Which I highly doubt you were..
All good thumb.gif
post #13733 of 22289
Quote:
Originally Posted by mus1mus View Post

I kno! tongue.gif

IIRC, with the release of Haswell CPUs came the DDR3L standard. Low voltage series RAMs that preached not stressing the CPU's IMC with conventional DDR3 Voltages.

I won't go into searching the JEDEC standard for DDR4 just to know what's the max I can feed the chip. I'll just sit in porch and bench my AMD FX rig with RAM Voltage of 1.75 max. As that thing is a sucker for Voltage. tongue.gif

"In recent weeks we have received kits that are running Intel XMP 2.0 memory profiles at 1.35V and 1.50V, which are both above the the ‘standard’ according to the JEDEC board. We also had one Intel X99 motherboard and Intel Core i7-5960X processor die an untimely death, so we were really curious if the higher than standard voltages played a roll in that situation. Legit Reviews contacted Intel about the safe voltage range on DDR4 memory and we received this response.


“1.5v is the absolute max we allow for XMP certifications. However, good DDR4 memory will run at 1.35v up to 3200. Technically, no “safe” (guaranteed) OC over-voltage but 1.35v or lower is best.” – Intel

So, it sounds like Intel suggests a memory kit that uses 1.35V or less and that 1.5V is the absolute max for Intel XMP 2.0 certifications. This is useful information for the community and we pretty sure that we weren’t the only ones that were curious how much power you could throw at the memory kit before the memory controller on the processor would being to get angry. The memory controller in Haswell-E is the same one used on Xeon processors, so it can technically support both DDR3 and DDR4 memory. DDR3 memory operates at 1.5V, so running 1.5V on Haswell-E shouldn’t be a big deal, but we all know that lower voltages are better.
1.2V or lower = Best for DDR4
1.35V = okay voltage for overclocking kits
1.5V =absolute max voltage allowed for Intel XMP 2.0 profiles and max suggested voltage

Now you know what the save voltage range is for DDR4 memory!"


Read more at http://www.legitreviews.com/what-is-the-safe-voltage-range-for-ddr4-memory-overclocking_150115#MSL32RjmQ3stq8KW.99


edit: erm - what kit is that you have at 4000?
Edited by Jpmboy - 10/22/15 at 6:11am
x99
(22 items)
 
Z370
(8 items)
 
x299
(18 items)
 
CPUCPUMotherboardGraphics
i7 5960X i7 6950X Asus Rampage V Extreme 10 2 GTX Titan X Pascal 
RAMHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
GSkill 3200c14 TZs 8x8GB @ 3400c13 Intel 750 NVMe 400GB 2x Plextor SSD 256 Raid 0 (Win 7) Samsung NVMe 950 Pro M.2 
Optical DriveCoolingCoolingCooling
Plextor 810 2x XSPC RX360 Koolance 380i D5 
CoolingOSOSOS
Aquaero 6 Windows 10 x64  Windows 7 Pro Linux Mint 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
Seiki 50" 4K monitor (720P-2160i) 240-30Hz Das Keyboard Model S Pro Corsair AX1200 Case Labs SM8 
MouseAudio
Steelseries Rival Ultimate Ears TF10 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
8700K ASUS Maximus X Apex GTX 1080 2x8 GB G.Skill 4400c19 
Hard DriveCoolingOSCase
Samsung 960 Pro 360Rad + Chiller Win 10 HWBOT OBT 
CPUCPUMotherboardGraphics
7740X 7980XE ASUS Rampage Vi Apex 2x Nvidia Titan Xp SLi 
RAMHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
G.Skill 3600c15 2x8GB kits Intel 900p WD Raptor 1T Plextor SSDs Raid 0 
Optical DriveCoolingOSOS
Plextor DVD/BR R/W (very) Custom Water Windows 10 Pro Windows 7 Pro 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
ASUS 144Hz Ducky Corsair 1500i Microcool Benchetto 101 
MouseAudio
Steelseries Rival Ultimate ears TF10s (IEMs) 
  hide details  
Reply
x99
(22 items)
 
Z370
(8 items)
 
x299
(18 items)
 
CPUCPUMotherboardGraphics
i7 5960X i7 6950X Asus Rampage V Extreme 10 2 GTX Titan X Pascal 
RAMHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
GSkill 3200c14 TZs 8x8GB @ 3400c13 Intel 750 NVMe 400GB 2x Plextor SSD 256 Raid 0 (Win 7) Samsung NVMe 950 Pro M.2 
Optical DriveCoolingCoolingCooling
Plextor 810 2x XSPC RX360 Koolance 380i D5 
CoolingOSOSOS
Aquaero 6 Windows 10 x64  Windows 7 Pro Linux Mint 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
Seiki 50" 4K monitor (720P-2160i) 240-30Hz Das Keyboard Model S Pro Corsair AX1200 Case Labs SM8 
MouseAudio
Steelseries Rival Ultimate Ears TF10 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
8700K ASUS Maximus X Apex GTX 1080 2x8 GB G.Skill 4400c19 
Hard DriveCoolingOSCase
Samsung 960 Pro 360Rad + Chiller Win 10 HWBOT OBT 
CPUCPUMotherboardGraphics
7740X 7980XE ASUS Rampage Vi Apex 2x Nvidia Titan Xp SLi 
RAMHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
G.Skill 3600c15 2x8GB kits Intel 900p WD Raptor 1T Plextor SSDs Raid 0 
Optical DriveCoolingOSOS
Plextor DVD/BR R/W (very) Custom Water Windows 10 Pro Windows 7 Pro 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
ASUS 144Hz Ducky Corsair 1500i Microcool Benchetto 101 
MouseAudio
Steelseries Rival Ultimate ears TF10s (IEMs) 
  hide details  
Reply
post #13734 of 22289
Quote:
Originally Posted by schoolofmonkey View Post

JP worded it better...lol..
I was meaning what he was saying, you guys helped with non overboard settings.

Anyone who can set something that high and have it stable is most defiantly experienced, never doubted that, he just got a little upset with what you guys were saying like you were picking.
Which I highly doubt you were..
All good thumb.gif

Stability at those voltages doesn't signify ability, it's also very subjective depending on who you're asking and what methodology is behind it. It's just another crossover between the realms of the general enthusiast and those who focus on pushing the upper most limits for scoring. When it comes to voltages like that, there is no excuse for making blanket statements when there's no evidence to suggest it's correct. It is a matter of perspective and choice to potentially run the risk of degrading both the IMC and the memory - it's passing it off as safe where the line needs to be drawn
post #13735 of 22289
Thanks man. +§

You've seen that joke before. thumb.gif
post #13736 of 22289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug2507 View Post

1.8v is way less than the mems can take (sammy) and well within safe IMC limits.

I'd have to see an 80%+ survival rate from three years of moderately heavy 24/7 use with a sample size of at least ten CPUs to be convinced 1.8+ vDIMM was with safe limits for Haswell-E.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silent Scone View Post

nobody in here will be running Prime for hours

Except for me!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silent Scone View Post

Doug is actually very experienced

No doubt, but extraordinary claims require a fair amount of supporting evidence...more than a handful of samples that have been benched for some months.

Haswell-E hasn't even existed long enough for me to be convinced of this safe 1.8 vDIMM claim...which is 450mV over the (admittedly conservative) absolute maximum rating given in the white papers.
Primary
(15 items)
 
Secondary
(13 items)
 
In progress
(10 items)
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
5820K @ 4.2/3.5GHz core/uncore, 1.175/1.15v Gigabyte X99 SOC Champion (F22n) Gigabyte AORUS GTX 1080 Ti (F3P) @ 2025/1485, 1... 4x4GiB Crucial @ 2667, 12-12-12-28-T1, 1.34v 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveCooling
Plextor M6e 128GB (fw 1.06) M.2 (PCI-E 2.0 2x) 2x Crucial M4 256GB 4x WD Scorpio Black 500GB Noctua NH-D15 
OSMonitorKeyboardPower
Windows 7 Professional x64 SP1 BenQ BL3200PT Filco Majestouch Tenkeyless (MX Brown) Corsair RM1000x 
CaseMouseAudio
Fractal Design Define R4 Logitech G402 Realtek ALC1150 + M-Audio AV40 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
X5670 @ 4.4/3.2GHz core/uncore, 1.36 vcore, 1.2... Gigabyte X58A-UD5 r2.0 w/FF3mod10 BIOS Sapphire Fury Nitro OC+ @ 1053/500, 1.225vGPU/1... 2x Samsung MV-3V4G3D/US @ 2000, 10-11-11-30-T1,... 
RAMHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
1x Crucial BLT4G3D1608ET3LX0 @ 2000, 10-11-11-3... OCZ (Toshiba) Trion 150 120GB Hyundai Sapphire 120GB 3x Hitachi Deskstar 7k1000.C 1TB 
CoolingOSPowerCase
Noctua NH-D14 Windows 7 Pro x64 SP1 Antec TP-750 Fractal Design R5 
Audio
ASUS Xonar DS 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i7-6800K @ 4.3/3.5GHz core/uncore, 1.36/1.2v ASRock X99 OC Formula (P3.10) GTX 780 (temporary) 4x4GiB Crucial DDR4-2400 @ 11-13-12-28-T2, 1.33v 
Hard DriveHard DriveCoolingOS
Intel 600p 256GB NVMe 2x HGST Travelstar 7k1000 1TB Corsair H55 (temporary) Windows Server 2016 Datacenter 
PowerCase
Seasonic SS-860XP2 Corsair Carbide Air 540 
  hide details  
Reply
Primary
(15 items)
 
Secondary
(13 items)
 
In progress
(10 items)
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
5820K @ 4.2/3.5GHz core/uncore, 1.175/1.15v Gigabyte X99 SOC Champion (F22n) Gigabyte AORUS GTX 1080 Ti (F3P) @ 2025/1485, 1... 4x4GiB Crucial @ 2667, 12-12-12-28-T1, 1.34v 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveCooling
Plextor M6e 128GB (fw 1.06) M.2 (PCI-E 2.0 2x) 2x Crucial M4 256GB 4x WD Scorpio Black 500GB Noctua NH-D15 
OSMonitorKeyboardPower
Windows 7 Professional x64 SP1 BenQ BL3200PT Filco Majestouch Tenkeyless (MX Brown) Corsair RM1000x 
CaseMouseAudio
Fractal Design Define R4 Logitech G402 Realtek ALC1150 + M-Audio AV40 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
X5670 @ 4.4/3.2GHz core/uncore, 1.36 vcore, 1.2... Gigabyte X58A-UD5 r2.0 w/FF3mod10 BIOS Sapphire Fury Nitro OC+ @ 1053/500, 1.225vGPU/1... 2x Samsung MV-3V4G3D/US @ 2000, 10-11-11-30-T1,... 
RAMHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
1x Crucial BLT4G3D1608ET3LX0 @ 2000, 10-11-11-3... OCZ (Toshiba) Trion 150 120GB Hyundai Sapphire 120GB 3x Hitachi Deskstar 7k1000.C 1TB 
CoolingOSPowerCase
Noctua NH-D14 Windows 7 Pro x64 SP1 Antec TP-750 Fractal Design R5 
Audio
ASUS Xonar DS 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i7-6800K @ 4.3/3.5GHz core/uncore, 1.36/1.2v ASRock X99 OC Formula (P3.10) GTX 780 (temporary) 4x4GiB Crucial DDR4-2400 @ 11-13-12-28-T2, 1.33v 
Hard DriveHard DriveCoolingOS
Intel 600p 256GB NVMe 2x HGST Travelstar 7k1000 1TB Corsair H55 (temporary) Windows Server 2016 Datacenter 
PowerCase
Seasonic SS-860XP2 Corsair Carbide Air 540 
  hide details  
Reply
post #13737 of 22289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silent Scone View Post

it's passing it off as safe where the line needs to be drawn

Honestly I haven't been doing in depth overclocking (until recently), but even those voltages scared me.
I've seen the article that jp post a while ago, guess that lead me to keeping my voltages around the 1.2v mark (lower = better).
But how the heck hasn't 1.8v killed the IMC yet, it seems like overkill for everyday use, I understand pushing everything to it's limits for a benchmark score, but that's not done all day everyday,
run the bench, get the score, back it off to a sensible level.

Slight overreacting to what you guys said too thumb.gif
post #13738 of 22289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blameless View Post

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
I'd have to see an 80%+ survival rate from three years of moderately heavy 24/7 use with a sample size of at least ten CPUs to be convinced 1.8+ vDIMM was with safe limits for Haswell-E.
Except for me! Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
No doubt, but extraordinary claims require a fair amount of supporting evidence...more than a handful of samples that have been benched for some months.

Haswell-E hasn't even existed long enough for me to be convinced of this safe 1.8 vDIMM claim...which is 450mV over the (admittedly conservative) absolute maximum rating given in the white papers.
lol.
laughingsmiley.gif
x99
(22 items)
 
Z370
(8 items)
 
x299
(18 items)
 
CPUCPUMotherboardGraphics
i7 5960X i7 6950X Asus Rampage V Extreme 10 2 GTX Titan X Pascal 
RAMHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
GSkill 3200c14 TZs 8x8GB @ 3400c13 Intel 750 NVMe 400GB 2x Plextor SSD 256 Raid 0 (Win 7) Samsung NVMe 950 Pro M.2 
Optical DriveCoolingCoolingCooling
Plextor 810 2x XSPC RX360 Koolance 380i D5 
CoolingOSOSOS
Aquaero 6 Windows 10 x64  Windows 7 Pro Linux Mint 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
Seiki 50" 4K monitor (720P-2160i) 240-30Hz Das Keyboard Model S Pro Corsair AX1200 Case Labs SM8 
MouseAudio
Steelseries Rival Ultimate Ears TF10 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
8700K ASUS Maximus X Apex GTX 1080 2x8 GB G.Skill 4400c19 
Hard DriveCoolingOSCase
Samsung 960 Pro 360Rad + Chiller Win 10 HWBOT OBT 
CPUCPUMotherboardGraphics
7740X 7980XE ASUS Rampage Vi Apex 2x Nvidia Titan Xp SLi 
RAMHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
G.Skill 3600c15 2x8GB kits Intel 900p WD Raptor 1T Plextor SSDs Raid 0 
Optical DriveCoolingOSOS
Plextor DVD/BR R/W (very) Custom Water Windows 10 Pro Windows 7 Pro 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
ASUS 144Hz Ducky Corsair 1500i Microcool Benchetto 101 
MouseAudio
Steelseries Rival Ultimate ears TF10s (IEMs) 
  hide details  
Reply
x99
(22 items)
 
Z370
(8 items)
 
x299
(18 items)
 
CPUCPUMotherboardGraphics
i7 5960X i7 6950X Asus Rampage V Extreme 10 2 GTX Titan X Pascal 
RAMHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
GSkill 3200c14 TZs 8x8GB @ 3400c13 Intel 750 NVMe 400GB 2x Plextor SSD 256 Raid 0 (Win 7) Samsung NVMe 950 Pro M.2 
Optical DriveCoolingCoolingCooling
Plextor 810 2x XSPC RX360 Koolance 380i D5 
CoolingOSOSOS
Aquaero 6 Windows 10 x64  Windows 7 Pro Linux Mint 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
Seiki 50" 4K monitor (720P-2160i) 240-30Hz Das Keyboard Model S Pro Corsair AX1200 Case Labs SM8 
MouseAudio
Steelseries Rival Ultimate Ears TF10 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
8700K ASUS Maximus X Apex GTX 1080 2x8 GB G.Skill 4400c19 
Hard DriveCoolingOSCase
Samsung 960 Pro 360Rad + Chiller Win 10 HWBOT OBT 
CPUCPUMotherboardGraphics
7740X 7980XE ASUS Rampage Vi Apex 2x Nvidia Titan Xp SLi 
RAMHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
G.Skill 3600c15 2x8GB kits Intel 900p WD Raptor 1T Plextor SSDs Raid 0 
Optical DriveCoolingOSOS
Plextor DVD/BR R/W (very) Custom Water Windows 10 Pro Windows 7 Pro 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
ASUS 144Hz Ducky Corsair 1500i Microcool Benchetto 101 
MouseAudio
Steelseries Rival Ultimate ears TF10s (IEMs) 
  hide details  
Reply
post #13739 of 22289
Wow, I was only gone for a few days and suddenly someone thinks 1.8V is a safe voltage for DDR4. The issue isn't going to be the DDR4 sticks - they can handle the voltage. The issue is with the CPU and its IMC. You're going to be pushing that far beyond its safe zone, and that's going to inevitably destroy your system. Rule of thumb is never to go higher than the previous gen voltage (which for DDR4 oh so seems to be 1.5V - you're reaching DDR2 levels there).
post #13740 of 22289
Bruh, it's Doug, it does XOC...
He said no issues, not stable with 3 hours of GSAT or 1000% HCI or 12h Aida. XD
CaseLabs Panda
(29 items)
 
Bench table
(18 items)
 
Fractal White
(17 items)
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
5960X Rampage V Extreme KFA² GTX 980Ti HOF Watercooled Kingston HyperX HX426C13PB2K4/16 
RAMHard DriveHard DriveCooling
G.Skill TridentZ F4-3200C14Q-32GTZ Kingston v300 Intel SSD 535 EK-Supremacy EVO - Full Nickel 
CoolingCoolingCoolingOS
EK-Coostream XE 360 EK-Vardar F4-120ER EK-XRES 140 D5 Vario (incl. pump) Win10 / Win 8.1 / Win 7 / Linux Mint 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
Dell U2515H Ducky Channel Shine III MX black - white LED /... Enermax Platimax 1000w dimastech easy v3 
MouseMouse Pad
logitech G9X HyperX 900x400 / Steelseries QCK 
  hide details  
Reply
CaseLabs Panda
(29 items)
 
Bench table
(18 items)
 
Fractal White
(17 items)
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
5960X Rampage V Extreme KFA² GTX 980Ti HOF Watercooled Kingston HyperX HX426C13PB2K4/16 
RAMHard DriveHard DriveCooling
G.Skill TridentZ F4-3200C14Q-32GTZ Kingston v300 Intel SSD 535 EK-Supremacy EVO - Full Nickel 
CoolingCoolingCoolingOS
EK-Coostream XE 360 EK-Vardar F4-120ER EK-XRES 140 D5 Vario (incl. pump) Win10 / Win 8.1 / Win 7 / Linux Mint 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
Dell U2515H Ducky Channel Shine III MX black - white LED /... Enermax Platimax 1000w dimastech easy v3 
MouseMouse Pad
logitech G9X HyperX 900x400 / Steelseries QCK 
  hide details  
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Intel CPUs
Overclock.net › Forums › Intel › Intel CPUs › == Haswell-E Overclock Leaderboard & Owners Club ==