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== Haswell-E Overclock Leaderboard & Owners Club == - Page 1679

post #16781 of 22008
Quote:
Originally Posted by kizwan View Post

Not all CPU the same, you do know that right. Just because one CPU have overclockability issue with C-states, doesn't mean other CPU will too. 1.2GHz not an indication that CPU core is entering C-states. When CPU core have a job to execute, it will always ramp up the frequency. If the job is simple/small enough, monitoring software may not quick enough to pickup the change of frequency.

BTW, I'm only clearing up some misinformation regarding C-states (refer to bolded text in my previous reply). I'm not telling people to use or not use C-states. Each to their own.

I know how C-States work. C-States reduce absolute no load idle power consumption, that shouldn't be confusing? When a CPU takes load, it increases voltage and frequency separately from C-States. That's ramping. 1.2GHz C0 won't be enough for some idle work. Hence it needs something like 1.6GHz C0 once in a while to process the additional load. That's related to CPU governors which decide what frequency to apply under a specific load threshold. Difficult to change in Windows, easier to change within Linux. Windows 10 default CPU governor is tuned to ramp more frequently, that's just how Microsoft decided to play the game. It works well enough, obviously you can change that yourself by modifying the "Minimum Processor State" to anything other than 0%. 0% lets the CPU sleep theoretically. That allows transitioning into the deeper C-States. A CPU that is never idle won't be able to enter C-States. The only way to be absolutely idle is to literally have nothing going in and out. But Intel designs the C-States so they act in a very quick burst, so that even the slightest period of no load can provide energy savings. This is not useful for a high end enthusiast OCed platform like X99, but rather low power, ULV laptops and netbooks where even a single Watt saved can boost battery life.

As for monitoring, that's polling. You decide how frequently, and how to poll your sensors. Frequency can be polled to the nanosecond if you wanted to but that wouldn't be feasible at all. Voltage could be polled to the lowest time interval of the FIVR/Mobo if you wanted to, but that wouldn't be feasible. Which makes monitoring average power consumption and average voltage a much better indicator of general idle power behaviour as opposed to immediate values. I.e. with C6 I've had 0V of Vcore at a single point in time, but average that idle use out, and it's actually an average of 0.320V. A massive difference.

Also package states can provide a higher risk of instability as they drop VCCSA and Cache voltages in idle phase, far beyond what is typically seen in a C1 package state. Some CPUs can withstand higher clocks with these C-States, yes; but eventually all CPUs OC headroom will suffer due to the inherent behaviour of these deeper C-States and the greater difference in idle-load voltage.

The thick of it: C6 saves at most 15W over C1E. It also increases wakeup latency, and whether that will affect you or not... is the question. Is 15W worth experiencing a possible drop in performance? I personally just put my rig to S3 sleep when it's idle instead of leaving all my other peripherals on.
Edited by Desolutional - 1/31/16 at 11:37am
post #16782 of 22008
Went back to 4500.

Is 1.200V cache OK for 24/7 usage? I'm looking to keep this chip a good while. So i'll easily back down if some voltages is not good.

Cooling my vrms with a fan, saw a 20'C drop in temp. That might help me with stability? (40 versus 60-ish)
post #16783 of 22008
1.20V of cache should be good for 24/7 use, wouldn't go higher than that if you want to play it safe for longevity (I haven't had issues with 1.25V myself). VRMs are good up to 80C, cooling them couldn't harm. wink.gif
post #16784 of 22008
trying to get to at least 4.7 ghz with an AIO liquid cooler. I think I can do it.
post #16785 of 22008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Desolutional View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kizwan View Post

Not all CPU the same, you do know that right. Just because one CPU have overclockability issue with C-states, doesn't mean other CPU will too. 1.2GHz not an indication that CPU core is entering C-states. When CPU core have a job to execute, it will always ramp up the frequency. If the job is simple/small enough, monitoring software may not quick enough to pickup the change of frequency.

BTW, I'm only clearing up some misinformation regarding C-states (refer to bolded text in my previous reply). I'm not telling people to use or not use C-states. Each to their own.

I know how C-States work. C-States reduce absolute no load idle power consumption, that shouldn't be confusing? When a CPU takes load, it increases voltage and frequency separately from C-States. That's ramping. 1.2GHz C0 won't be enough for some idle work. Hence it needs something like 1.6GHz C0 once in a while to process the additional load. That's related to CPU governors which decide what frequency to apply under a specific load threshold.
It doesn't work that way. Like I said earlier, when the CPU core have a job to execute, regardless whether it was in low-power C-states, core frequency will always ramp up more than 1.2GHz. It won't stay at 1.2GHz when it have job to do. There is no such thing as idle work. Like I said before if the job is small enough. monitoring software may not quick enough to detect the change of frequency.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Desolutional View Post

It works well enough, obviously you can change that yourself by modifying the "Minimum Processor State" to anything other than 0%. 0% lets the CPU sleep theoretically. That allows transitioning into the deeper C-States. A CPU that is never idle won't be able to enter C-States. The only way to be absolutely idle is to literally have nothing going in and out.
This is not true. Just having minimum power state to 0%, doesn't mean the CPU core will enter low-power C-states. The low-power C-states need to be enabled for the CPU core to be able to enter these low-power states. Even when CPU cores are under load, if low-power C-states enabled, the CPU cores still be able to enter these states between jobs. It doesn't need to be absolutely idle to go idle.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Desolutional View Post

Also package states can provide a higher risk of instability as they drop VCCSA and Cache voltages in idle phase, far beyond what is typically seen in a C1 package state. Some CPUs can withstand higher clocks with these C-States, yes; but eventually all CPUs OC headroom will suffer due to the inherent behaviour of these deeper C-States and the greater difference in idle-load voltage.
ASUS is always have package C-states disabled in the BIOS. I don't think it will be any difference with their x99 BIOS.
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post #16786 of 22008
Quote:
Originally Posted by med1kl View Post

trying to get to at least 4.7 ghz with an AIO liquid cooler. I think I can do it.

what cpu? what MB? what Ram?
x99
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2 GTX Titan X Pascal GSkill 3200c14 TZs 8x8GB @ 3400c13 Intel 750 NVMe 400GB 2x Plextor SSD 256 Raid 0 (Win 7) 
Hard DriveOptical DriveCoolingCooling
Samsung NVMe 950 Pro M.2 Plextor 810 Aquacomputer GiGant 1680 (4x420) external Rad XSPC RX360 
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Koolance 380i Laing DDC-1T (2) Koolance EXC-800 Chiller Windows 10 x64  
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G.Skill 4266c19 Samsung SM951 WD VR 300 Intel 750 NVMe U.2 
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post #16787 of 22008
I have no idea what I'm doing. or how long it will take to process my form. But here's my validation, http://valid.x86.fr/18k6zg . So do I get to join? just got this system running. and I'm still playing with it, and learning.biggrin.gif





post #16788 of 22008
Quote:
Originally Posted by kizwan View Post

It doesn't work that way. Like I said earlier, when the CPU core have a job to execute, regardless whether it was in low-power C-states, core frequency will always ramp up more than 1.2GHz. It won't stay at 1.2GHz when it have job to do. There is no such thing as idle work. Like I said before if the job is small enough. monitoring software may not quick enough to detect the change of frequency.

1.2GHz can be enough for certain tasks. It's just that Windows likes to raise frequency at lower loads in comparison with some more conservative governors which used to be used. These newer platforms use Intel's own P-States, so you can blame Intel for the frequency scaling. It is possible to run tasks at 1.2GHz, they will just take longer to complete. Here's a fun thing to do, set the Maximum processor state in Windows power options to 0%. Congratulations, you are now running in userspace parameters, and that system will always stay at 1.2GHz regardless of load. But it's slooooooow. CPU Frequency Scaling != what is actually needed for the workload. A h264 encode in that state will always use 1.2GHz, but will be much slower as it's being limited to 1.2GHz. Like the CPU itself will need to be at its minimum P-State to enter C-States. You should not be allowed to enter C2+ from 2.4GHz as that's potentially performance lost by forcing the pipeline to be suspended. Setting to to 10%, etc. until you reach the next core bin will reinstate Intel's P-States and you'll have that ramping on idle, even though the actual max allowed is lower than 100%.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kizwan View Post

This is not true. Just having minimum power state to 0%, doesn't mean the CPU core will enter low-power C-states. The low-power C-states need to be enabled for the CPU core to be able to enter these low-power states. Even when CPU cores are under load, if low-power C-states enabled, the CPU cores still be able to enter these states between jobs. It doesn't need to be absolutely idle to go idle.

Yep, I assumed you'd already set the C-States up in the BIOS, etc. at this point. I meant that you actually have to be at 0% in order to enter a C-State. I.e. if you're at 1% load minimum then it will never sleep. However, if you set the minimum allowable state to 0%, whenever the pipeline is empty, the CPU can go to sleep. Think quick, rapid, super fast, microsleeps. That's essentially what C-States provide on idle. During load, or with a non-empty pipeline, the deep sleep C-States can't be utilised (as they'd force the CPU to halt itself which is not what we want). I guess in a way, one could use the CPU limiting mechanism in Windows to test a -ve offset on a range of core bins...

If you want to do some more reading, I highly recommend this article as it goes really into depth regarding P-States, C-States and et. al: https://software.intel.com/en-us/articles/power-management-states-p-states-c-states-and-package-c-states#_Toc383778909

I limit my laptop because I don't like how aggressive Intel's frequency scaling is on my laptop chip - I shouldn't need to ramp up beyond 0.8GHz when I'm editing a word document, and yet it does for no conceivable reason other than to "anticipate" my next move. Nice feature, but would enjoy being able to mod that like in the old Linux days and Android kernels.
Edited by Desolutional - 1/31/16 at 12:45pm
post #16789 of 22008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Horsemen View Post

I have no idea what I'm doing. or how long it will take to process my form. But here's my validation, http://valid.x86.fr/18k6zg . So do I get to join? just got this system running. and I'm still playing with it, and learning.biggrin.gif

Nice system smile.gif
post #16790 of 22008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Desolutional View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kizwan View Post

It doesn't work that way. Like I said earlier, when the CPU core have a job to execute, regardless whether it was in low-power C-states, core frequency will always ramp up more than 1.2GHz. It won't stay at 1.2GHz when it have job to do. There is no such thing as idle work. Like I said before if the job is small enough. monitoring software may not quick enough to detect the change of frequency.

1.2GHz can be enough for certain tasks.
I definitely not comment whether 1.2GHz is enough or not. Like I said before no such thing as idle work. You can set maximum processor states to lower or even 0%. That's only affect your max cpu frequency & core will ramp up to (allowable) max cpu frequency when there is job to execute. Intel has been using P-states for a long time now, not just x99.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Desolutional View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kizwan View Post

This is not true. Just having minimum power state to 0%, doesn't mean the CPU core will enter low-power C-states. The low-power C-states need to be enabled for the CPU core to be able to enter these low-power states. Even when CPU cores are under load, if low-power C-states enabled, the CPU cores still be able to enter these states between jobs. It doesn't need to be absolutely idle to go idle.

Yep, I assumed you'd already set the C-States up in the BIOS, etc. at this point. I meant that you actually have to be at 0% in order to enter a C-State. I.e. if you're at 1% load minimum then it will never sleep. However, if you set the minimum allowable state to 0%, whenever the pipeline is empty, the CPU can go to sleep. Think quick, rapid, super fast, microsleeps. That's essentially what C-States provide on idle. During load, or with a non-empty pipeline, the deep sleep C-States can't be utilised (as they'd force the CPU to halt itself which is not what we want). I guess in a way, one could use the CPU limiting mechanism in Windows to test a -ve offset on a range of core bins...
That is not true at all. Even if you set minimum processor state above 0%, if C-states is enabled, CPU cores still be able to enter these states & it can spend a lot of time in these states if there's no load.
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