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[PC Monitors] Samsung S34E790C Curved 34" 21:9 Ultrawide VA Monitor - Page 42

post #411 of 545
Quote:
Originally Posted by MonarchX View Post

I agree about viewing angles - they do suck, but if it visible only on certain grayscale levels and film playback. I don't see it in most of my games. I used to have ASUS ROG and it paled in comparison to FG2421 when it came to image quality. ASUS ROG's motion with ULMB was only slightly clearer to my eyes compared to FG2421's motion, but ASUS ROG did have much better input lag. I guess it depends on the person because I can''t even catch FG2421's double-strobing, unless I test it with BlurBusters tools.

There's just no good alternatives out there that can provide BOTH - great motion and great image quality. All TN's are out of the question for their terrible color reproduction, terrible view angles (worse than FG2421) and most importantly very poor contrast & black levels. IPS has better angles, more accurate colors, but once again - very poor contrast & black levels in addition to IPS glow, which further reduces image quality and depth perception.

Contrast ratio is the #1 factor of any display's image quality because it creates a much deeper image, 3D-like image, that greatly improves immersion. The majority of professional calibrators, color scientists, display technology experts, and HTPC enthusiasts agrees with that. It is also why the highest-end TV's today are plasma TV's with exceptionally high contrast ratio and very deep black levels. They are no longer manufactured because they look best in dark environments and most TV's are sold in bright rooms/stores in addition to having bad rep for their "burn-in" issue, which no longer exists (any image retention can be easily removed). Right now OLED's are in the process of replacing plasma TV's and ONCE AGAIN, they are the highest-end TV's because of their super contrast ratio (better than plasma's).

Well the FG2421 is only 23.5" and 1080p, I simply can't live with that. I came from a Dell U2412M back when I tested it, and the Eizo were much smaller. I think IPS is far superior to VA and 27" 1440p is a must for me these days. If VA really were better I doubt they would be using IPS/AHVA panels in the newest generation gaming monitors. VA response times arent good enough for fast paced games. FG2421 is up to ~50ms G2G sometimes, way too high for my use.

Thats probably also the reason why Eizo is finally using IPS panels in their newest gaming monitor, FS2735. 27 inch. 1440p. 144 Hz.
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post #412 of 545
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lass3 View Post

Well the FG2421 is only 23.5" and 1080p, I simply can't live with that. I came from a Dell U2412M back when I tested it, and the Eizo were much smaller. I think IPS is far superior to VA and 27" 1440p is a must for me these days. If VA really were better I doubt they would be using IPS/AHVA panels in the newest generation gaming monitors. VA response times arent good enough for fast paced games. FG2421 is up to ~50ms G2G sometimes, way too high for my use.

Thats probably also the reason why Eizo is finally using IPS panels in their newest gaming monitor, FS2735. 27 inch. 1440p. 144 Hz.

They use IPS on new generation gaming monitors because most gamers are clueless about display quality and demand IPS panels for 2 reasons - good color accuracy and good viewing, but neither result in providing good image quality due to depth and immersion, which only contrast can provide. Gaming IPS panels are like Gaming Headphones, which are usually crap or a lot crappier than NON-gaming high-quality monitoring headsets (Sennheiser HD 600 or better). In reality, most people are gaming on VA displays because most gamers play on consoles and practically ALL mid-end and high-end LED LCD TV's today use SPVA (superior VA) or plasma or OLED technology, although only VA technology of certain TV's offers low-enough input lag for my tastes. Only low-end TV's and crappy TV's use IPS technology with ONE exception - Panasonic's new IPS prototype TV (not out for consumers) that provides relatively good contrast ratio, equivalent to VA ratio when local/micro dimming is turned off.

They are releasing gaming IPS panels as mainstream FOR NOW because it is easier to get IPS monitors running @ 120Hz + than VA monitors, BUT there has been movement in high refresh-rate VA monitor development already. Eizo Foris FG2421 was simply a one-of-a-kind panel from Sharp that was originally designed for a professional (non-consumer) $6000 satellite-imagery work monitor. Eizo had left overs and they used the same panel with cheaper parts to create FG2421.

VA panels from the old days were definitely inferior to IPS displays because of bad color accuracy and motion blur, which is why clueless people avoid them today, just like the same people avoid plasma TV''s, thinking all those Cons were never ironed out. VA's still don't have as good of color accuracy (which is not the same as color quality) as IPS monitors without calibration, but these days you can create 3DLUT's for games and film playback to have color accuracy on any VA superior to any IPS panel accuracy without such a 3DLUT. That takes color accuracy out of the question, leaving motion blur, which is still slightly higher on VA panels than on IPS panels @ the same refresh rate, but once you get to 120Hz and ULMB/Light-Strobing/Turbo 240, the difference is impossible for most people to notice.

Resolution is important to some people, but even at 16K resolution, a panel with low contrast will provide just that - low contrast, poor blacks, and little-to-no image depth. It just doesn't compensate for contrast.

From left to right - TN, IPS, FG2421


Notice how IPS panel (middle) shows obvious IPS glow that further brightness that non-existent blacks, leaving the image flat and life-less. 4K resolution doesn't make IPS or TN panels any more immersive. it does make them have finer and smaller pixels, but that surely does not affect how the image just pops if it has high contrast ratio.

CRT FTW!!! Sony FW900 had almost INFINITE contrast ratio due to near-0 black level! I want to get mine soon - only $1000 for a new-like unit!
Edited by MonarchX - 10/26/15 at 3:47am
post #413 of 545
I have seen zero ghosting or blurriness on my S34E790C, but maybe my eyes are not as sharp as others. I know I am super happy with mine. Playing BF4 and other first person shooters on it is amazing. The curve really adds a nice touch to it, but it doesn't look strange or distracting even when using productivity applications. Games that don't properly support 21:9 look beautiful at 1440p on it as well.
post #414 of 545
Quote:
Originally Posted by rexbinary View Post

I have seen zero ghosting or blurriness on my S34E790C, but maybe my eyes are not as sharp as others. I know I am super happy with mine. Playing BF4 and other first person shooters on it is amazing. The curve really adds a nice touch to it, but it doesn't look strange or distracting even when using productivity applications. Games that don't properly support 21:9 look beautiful at 1440p on it as well.

It does have excellent response time and overall its one the best high-resolution VA monitors with decent contrast ratio. It does come with somewhat inaccurate and over-saturated colors - I advice on calibrating it at least with i1Display Pro / ColorMunki Display to get the most out of it. These days you can get near-perfect calibration that can be applied in games. Just a few months ago that was impossible.
post #415 of 545
Quote:
Originally Posted by MonarchX View Post

They use IPS on new generation gaming monitors because most gamers are clueless about display quality and demand IPS panels for 2 reasons - good color accuracy and good viewing, but neither result in providing good image quality due to depth and immersion, which only contrast can provide. Gaming IPS panels are like Gaming Headphones, which are usually crap or a lot crappier than NON-gaming high-quality monitoring headsets (Sennheiser HD 600 or better). In reality, most people are gaming on VA displays because most gamers play on consoles and practically ALL mid-end and high-end LED LCD TV's today use SPVA (superior VA) or plasma or OLED technology, although only VA technology of certain TV's offers low-enough input lag for my tastes. Only low-end TV's and crappy TV's use IPS technology with ONE exception - Panasonic's new IPS prototype TV (not out for consumers) that provides relatively good contrast ratio, equivalent to VA ratio when local/micro dimming is turned off.

They are releasing gaming IPS panels as mainstream FOR NOW because it is easier to get IPS monitors running @ 120Hz + than VA monitors, BUT there has been movement in high refresh-rate VA monitor development already. Eizo Foris FG2421 was simply a one-of-a-kind panel from Sharp that was originally designed for a professional (non-consumer) $6000 satellite-imagery work monitor. Eizo had left overs and they used the same panel with cheaper parts to create FG2421.

VA panels from the old days were definitely inferior to IPS displays because of bad color accuracy and motion blur, which is why clueless people avoid them today, just like the same people avoid plasma TV''s, thinking all those Cons were never ironed out. VA's still don't have as good of color accuracy (which is not the same as color quality) as IPS monitors without calibration, but these days you can create 3DLUT's for games and film playback to have color accuracy on any VA superior to any IPS panel accuracy without such a 3DLUT. That takes color accuracy out of the question, leaving motion blur, which is still slightly higher on VA panels than on IPS panels @ the same refresh rate, but once you get to 120Hz and ULMB/Light-Strobing/Turbo 240, the difference is impossible for most people to notice.

Resolution is important to some people, but even at 16K resolution, a panel with low contrast will provide just that - low contrast, poor blacks, and little-to-no image depth. It just doesn't compensate for contrast.

From left to right - TN, IPS, FG2421


Notice how IPS panel (middle) shows obvious IPS glow that further brightness that non-existent blacks, leaving the image flat and life-less. 4K resolution doesn't make IPS or TN panels any more immersive. it does make them have finer and smaller pixels, but that surely does not affect how the image just pops if it has high contrast ratio.

CRT FTW!!! Sony FW900 had almost INFINITE contrast ratio due to near-0 black level! I want to get mine soon - only $1000 for a new-like unit!

I'm amazed that people have settled for IPS display's and have not encouraged the industry to push new generation VA panels for gamers. IPS display's were wonderful back in the mid to late's 2000's. However we have seen no improvements(and some regression, removal of ATW Polarizers) due to the display's tech limitations in area of contrast which is still to this day stuck at 1000:1 It's funny cause some of the best LCD TV's all use some type of VA panel. I checked out recently in person the new 34 inch IPS 21:9 display's with gsync and high refresh and was seriously unimpressed. Essentially just a larger display with higher refresh. They still glow, and look washed out in dark scenes. I will no longer spend serious cash on this inferior display type(IPS) since at this point I feel they are ripping PC consumers off when we know they can produce high quality, high refresh rates VA panels.

As I mention in another thread, TFT central has reported that Samsung is going to release a 34' 21:9 curved 100Hz Gsync SVA panel.
post #416 of 545
Yup and what is awesome is that VA panels are cheaper than IPS with identical specs.

IPS panels are actually of higher quality than VA panels, but they are simply of the WRONG technology for gaming due to poor contrast, black levels, and IPS glow. They are the best panels for photography, CAD, graphics DEVELOPMENT/CREATION for games or films, BUT NOT gaming or film playback itself.

VA panels are of lower quality than IPS panels, but they use the RIGHT technology for gaming that provides the best gaming and film playback experience.

There are exceptions, such as high-end SPVA panels used in expensive LED LCD HDTV's, that are of very high quality and have excellent viewing angles, uniformity, and color accuracy.

Unfortunately, high quality VA panels such as SPVA panels I described, have not gone mainstream on PC monitors. TV's get the best panels, leaving monitors behind, be VA OR IPS.

Sony makes the best gaming TV's that use light-strobing at 60Hz and have excellent input lag! 60Hz strobing is not aa clear as 120Hz ULMB or LightBoost or Turvo 240, but it does provide much better motion clarity than normal 60Hz without fake 120Hz opera-like interpolation.
post #417 of 545
Sorry VA are not that great for gaming either. They have typically a lot of blur and inverse ghosting ( which is even worse ) this can be tweaked a lot but there not crisp in motion, you need g-sync's black frame insertion for that on LCD. They can blur, the blacks are black, but they can crush. The contrast isn’t guaranteed on larger panels either.. and then there is VA glow, a shiny silvery back glow that sometimes swamp the actual image in front rolleyes.gif IPS IS higher quality than any other, but suffers from clouding and back light glow on many panels, It has better response times than VA but this is a lottery between models and what manufacturers deem a good response setting. TN has poor colors and viewing angles and yet by and large I have found them to have their equal strengths.


Face it, LCD has been and always will designed primarily for the office productivity, for space / energy saving concerns not to mention much better environmental attributes compared with CRT. Now some manufacturers after a long wait are finally trying to polish the turd.

Your better looking at TV's for panel quality rather than a 'monitor' ( stupid as that sounds but its true ) TV's have better panels, brands ride on their quality for their business image but their monitors are 2nd class citizens unless you drop several thousand $ on a proper unit calibrated and factory checked. LCD can produce outstanding static images but no one monitor released since TFT's inception has ever been a show stopper than can match a pro CRT all around on dark scenes, motion clarity and contrast.


for the record i have recently owned a $500 asus PB287Q 4k TN that everyone raved about .. duff, I had to return within half a day it was worse in most aspects than my 6 year old $250 1080p 6bit hp2510i ! really .. the overshoot on the supposed best setting caused a lot of ringing artefacts, the panel back light was too intense on dark scenes, the colors didn’t 'pop' and its a 10bit TN (supposedly the best ). It had 4 times the resolution but that made no difference to the overall perception of quality (the asus's plastics were horrid compared to the HP) and the coating that was meant to be clear was actually very hazy compared to some others.

I now have a screen that betters my HP a Benq PL3200 @ 1440p .. great for the price i paid, almost everything is a few leagues better .. but the blur it almost not workable for FPS games, many times as bad as my HP, the VA glow .. i didn’t even have glow on my TN and the backlight was non existent black were black .. on my TN and not on my VA (( that is to say that there was no glow / sheen )) Sigh, it will do until a 40" - 42" 4k LG OLED comes out or a well proven 4k 32" - 34" 120hz monitor is released. Buying monitors is one of the biggest head aches with PC gaming and I think im resigning to just buying a big 4k TV instead .. but then PWM rolleyes.gif

Edited by Pip Boy - 10/27/15 at 1:37pm
post #418 of 545
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pip Boy View Post

Sorry VA are not that great for gaming either. They have typically a lot of blur and inverse ghosting ( which is even worse ) this can be tweaked a lot but there not crisp in motion, you need g-sync's black frame insertion for that on LCD. They can blur, the blacks are black, but they can crush. The contrast isn’t guaranteed on larger panels either.. and then there is VA glow, a shiny silvery back glow that sometimes swamp the actual image in front rolleyes.gif IPS IS higher quality than any other, but suffers from clouding and back light glow on many panels, It has better response times than VA but this is a lottery between models and what manufacturers deem a good response setting. TN has poor colors and viewing angles and yet by and large I have found them to have their equal strengths.


Face it, LCD has been and always will designed primarily for the office productivity, for space / energy saving concerns not to mention much better environmental attributes compared with CRT. Now some manufacturers after a long wait are finally trying to polish the turd.

Your better looking at TV's for panel quality rather than a 'monitor' ( stupid as that sounds but its true ) TV's have better panels, brands ride on their quality for their business image but their monitors are 2nd class citizens unless you drop several thousand $ on a proper unit calibrated and factory checked. LCD can produce outstanding static images but no one monitor released since TFT's inception has ever been a show stopper than can match a pro CRT all around on dark scenes, motion clarity and contrast.


for the record i have recently owned a $500 asus PB287Q 4k TN that everyone raved about .. duff, I had to return within half a day it was worse in most aspects than my 6 year old $250 1080p 6bit hp2510i ! really .. the overshoot on the supposed best setting caused a lot of ringing artefacts, the panel back light was too intense on dark scenes, the colors didn’t 'pop' and its a 10bit TN (supposedly the best ). It had 4 times the resolution but that made no difference to the overall perception of quality (the asus's plastics were horrid compared to the HP) and the coating that was meant to be clear was actually very hazy compared to some others.

I now have a screen that betters my HP a Benq PL3200 @ 1440p .. great for the price i paid, almost everything is a few leagues better .. but the blur it almost not workable for FPS games, many times as bad as my HP, the VA glow .. i didn’t even have glow on my TN and the backlight was non existent black were black .. on my TN and not on my VA (( that is to say that there was no glow / sheen )) Sigh, it will do until a 40" - 42" 4k LG OLED comes out or a well proven 4k 32" - 34" 120hz monitor is released. Buying monitors is one of the biggest head aches with PC gaming and I think im resigning to just buying a big 4k TV instead .. but then PWM rolleyes.gif

I agree with you 90%. I'm not claiming VA is the be all end all. It has it's faults, like IPS does, but as mentioned the manufacturers have shown very little interest to refine and improve current VA offerings. The Eizo was a positive start which ended abruptly. LCD will always have limitations with contrast, motion, panel uniformity and BBL. Yes depending on the VA panel, model and manufacture it can suffer VA shifting but noting as bad as IPS glow for the most part. I saw the 40' Philips and the blacks were stunning for and LCD display. Yes it sufferers from slow black to white transitions but for other color transitions response time was fast 8ms. Not close to an ideal competitive fps monitor, but for casual gaming it looked good to me and despite it's flaws, i'd prefer it over the IPS monitors. As it stands right now, the only manufacturer even attempting to release a high resolution 21:9 high refresh rate display is Samsung. VA faults can be reduced just like every other LCD display tech, but as we noted, only the televisions receive that treatment. As it stands i'll probably wait and see what Samsung has to offer in the coming months.

BTW I own a Sony KDL50W800C which uses AU Optronics VA panel with strobing@120Hz (setting 3) which makes it very difficult to even look at an IPS display anymore. I can no longer deal with washed out blacks, and glow all over the screen.
post #419 of 545
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paradigm View Post

I agree with you 90%. I'm not claiming VA is the be all end all. It has it's faults, like IPS does, but as mentioned the manufacturers have shown very little interest to refine and improve current VA offerings. The Eizo was a positive start which ended abruptly. LCD will always have limitations with contrast, motion, panel uniformity and BBL. Yes depending on the VA panel, model and manufacture it can suffer VA shifting but noting as bad as IPS glow for the most part. I saw the 40' Philips and the blacks were stunning for and LCD display. Yes it sufferers from slow black to white transitions but for other color transitions response time was fast 8ms. Not close to an ideal competitive fps monitor, but for casual gaming it looked good to me and despite it's flaws, i'd prefer it over the IPS monitors. As it stands right now, the only manufacturer even attempting to release a high resolution 21:9 high refresh rate display is Samsung. VA faults can be reduced just like every other LCD display tech, but as we noted, only the televisions receive that treatment. As it stands i'll probably wait and see what Samsung has to offer in the coming months.

BTW I own a Sony KDL50W800C which uses AU Optronics VA panel with strobing@120Hz (setting 3) which makes it very difficult to even look at an IPS display anymore. I can no longer deal with washed out blacks, and glow all over the screen.

Yup, I have an old 1080p 32" Panasonic IPS 8bit TV, it has almost no backlight glow ( not sure if they used a polarizer ) it has the best i have seen in terms of a response circuit with hardly any trail and zero overshoot, its colors are solid and its a TV so the backlight can be dropped off but the contrast is perfectly fine as a monitor .. the problem is as with all TV's ( conspiracy time ) they don't do 4:4:4 @ 1:1 .. and the PPI is too low, so you can't double duty the set, But with the PC monitor market shrinking and 4k panels offering PPI akin to a 27" 1400p screen even at a massive 40" its getting harder for them to not just include a PC mode and a display port connector.

If they don't ( they being Sony, Panasonic, Samsung, LG ) then other cheaper Chinese brands will and get imported and take the $$ instead as is happening now, even philips has cottoned on.
post #420 of 545
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pip Boy View Post

Sorry VA are not that great for gaming either. They have typically a lot of blur and inverse ghosting ( which is even worse ) this can be tweaked a lot but there not crisp in motion, you need g-sync's black frame insertion for that on LCD. They can blur, the blacks are black, but they can crush. The contrast isn’t guaranteed on larger panels either.. and then there is VA glow, a shiny silvery back glow that sometimes swamp the actual image in front rolleyes.gif IPS IS higher quality than any other, but suffers from clouding and back light glow on many panels, It has better response times than VA but this is a lottery between models and what manufacturers deem a good response setting. TN has poor colors and viewing angles and yet by and large I have found them to have their equal strengths.


Face it, LCD has been and always will designed primarily for the office productivity, for space / energy saving concerns not to mention much better environmental attributes compared with CRT. Now some manufacturers after a long wait are finally trying to polish the turd.

Your better looking at TV's for panel quality rather than a 'monitor' ( stupid as that sounds but its true ) TV's have better panels, brands ride on their quality for their business image but their monitors are 2nd class citizens unless you drop several thousand $ on a proper unit calibrated and factory checked. LCD can produce outstanding static images but no one monitor released since TFT's inception has ever been a show stopper than can match a pro CRT all around on dark scenes, motion clarity and contrast.


for the record i have recently owned a $500 asus PB287Q 4k TN that everyone raved about .. duff, I had to return within half a day it was worse in most aspects than my 6 year old $250 1080p 6bit hp2510i ! really .. the overshoot on the supposed best setting caused a lot of ringing artefacts, the panel back light was too intense on dark scenes, the colors didn’t 'pop' and its a 10bit TN (supposedly the best ). It had 4 times the resolution but that made no difference to the overall perception of quality (the asus's plastics were horrid compared to the HP) and the coating that was meant to be clear was actually very hazy compared to some others.

I now have a screen that betters my HP a Benq PL3200 @ 1440p .. great for the price i paid, almost everything is a few leagues better .. but the blur it almost not workable for FPS games, many times as bad as my HP, the VA glow .. i didn’t even have glow on my TN and the backlight was non existent black were black .. on my TN and not on my VA (( that is to say that there was no glow / sheen )) Sigh, it will do until a 40" - 42" 4k LG OLED comes out or a well proven 4k 32" - 34" 120hz monitor is released. Buying monitors is one of the biggest head aches with PC gaming and I think im resigning to just buying a big 4k TV instead .. but then PWM rolleyes.gif

VA panels have greatly improved as far as response times go. You also have to give VA panels at least 30 minutes of intense usage before measuring its response times. I do agree VA panels are somewhat behind IPS monitors, but not by that much an they are getting better. Response times is why I went with FG2421 because 120Hz + Light-Strobing more than makes up for response time. Motion is extremely clear on this one.

The VA glow is not VA glow, but matte coating, which I HATE. It is another reason I went with FG2421 - it uses semi-glossy screen with just enough of very mild matte coating to prevent glare, but without reducing pixel clarity. In fact, reviews have shown that FG2421 pixels are almost as clear as the ones on 100% glossy monitors.

I also have an old 2009 CCFL (not LED) SPVA HDTV from Samsung that supposedly have 6ms response time. I still play SP games on it without issues, but I do see some blur. Thing is - blur is something developers take into consideration. Just about every game these days comes with Motion Blur enabled on consoles and PC's, although PC users tend to disable it. This TV's motion is not good for MP gaming like Battlefield 4. At the same time it has 12bit color depth option that allows for very smooth gradient transition in games. I don't think there are any 12bit VA monitors. In actuality its 10bit with 12bit internal processing because there are no true 12bit panels in existence for consumers yet, but there may be some for professional color grading (worth $5000+).

4K TV's are NOT WORTH BUYING at this time because they are not future-proof. 4K television and film mastering is going to use Rec. 2020 colorspace standard and there is yet to be a 4K TV that is capable of producing Rec. 2020 colors. That means you will have to re-purchase a different 4K TV once 4K goes mainstream... 4K monitors for the sake of having 4K is fine though because Rec. 2020 standard will only be picked up by films, not video games, which will still use sRGB / Rec. 709 primaries.
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