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post #421 of 545
I think people saying VA's are not for gaming haven't seen ever a good FG2421 (one with no defects) with their own eyes. I've owned some IPSs (H-IPS and eIPS), a ROG Swift, and none of them are even close in image quality to the Foris with it's 5000:1 and 120hz storbed. No doubt the swift was a faster panel, but it can't offset the contrast of the foris, which is really close in motion clarity with the storbing. The only downsides of the foris is the 24"-1080p size/res and the lack of VRR (which is not an issue at 1080p with a 980ti@1500).

I hope the new samsung 34" gsync comes soon, maybe we'll have a worthy successor of the FG2421.
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post #422 of 545
Quote:
Originally Posted by amlett View Post

The only downsides of the foris is the 24"-1080p size/res and the lack of VRR
You forgot viewing angles and QC lottery.
    
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post #423 of 545
The QC control lottery was the big problem with this monitor, no doubt. Thats why I said (a good one).

In my case I was very lucky finding a second handed one relatively close to where I live. I asked the seller for some pics and a video, and after seeing them, it seemed to be a good one, so I went to his home. The panel was simply perfect. and the price was good (300€). He just wanted something bigger and Gsync, so he was going to get an Acer 27" 1440p Gsync.

About viewing angles, without being so good as a good IPS, are far better than any TN panel, and more that enough for a gaming monitor, which I look face to face, not from a side.

As I said, I wish it was 1440p and 27/32" with VRR. Those are in my case the only things I miss. But compared to have to deal with low contrast, no blacks, and glow... I preffer keeping my foris.

And I insist, people shoud see a good foris before bashing VA panels for gaming. They would be amazed with the picture quality, inmersion and motion clarity it offers at the same time.
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post #424 of 545
Quote:
Originally Posted by MonarchX View Post

VA panels have greatly improved as far as response times go. You also have to give VA panels at least 30 minutes of intense usage before measuring its response times. I do agree VA panels are somewhat behind IPS monitors, but not by that much an they are getting better. Response times is why I went with FG2421 because 120Hz + Light-Strobing more than makes up for response time. Motion is extremely clear on this one.

The VA glow is not VA glow, but matte coating, which I HATE. It is another reason I went with FG2421 - it uses semi-glossy screen with just enough of very mild matte coating to prevent glare, but without reducing pixel clarity. In fact, reviews have shown that FG2421 pixels are almost as clear as the ones on 100% glossy monitors.

I also have an old 2009 CCFL (not LED) SPVA HDTV from Samsung that supposedly have 6ms response time. I still play SP games on it without issues, but I do see some blur. Thing is - blur is something developers take into consideration. Just about every game these days comes with Motion Blur enabled on consoles and PC's, although PC users tend to disable it. This TV's motion is not good for MP gaming like Battlefield 4. At the same time it has 12bit color depth option that allows for very smooth gradient transition in games. I don't think there are any 12bit VA monitors. In actuality its 10bit with 12bit internal processing because there are no true 12bit panels in existence for consumers yet, but there may be some for professional color grading (worth $5000+).

4K TV's are NOT WORTH BUYING at this time because they are not future-proof. 4K television and film mastering is going to use Rec. 2020 colorspace standard and there is yet to be a 4K TV that is capable of producing Rec. 2020 colors. That means you will have to re-purchase a different 4K TV once 4K goes mainstream... 4K monitors for the sake of having 4K is fine though because Rec. 2020 standard will only be picked up by films, not video games, which will still use sRGB / Rec. 709 primaries.

They have definatley improved I agree but unless you go for one that has specifically been tailored for low response and use rare technology like strobing ( forgetting that models QC issues ) then in general your going to be left wanting, at the current time, things do improve but isnt it interesting that 15 - 20 years into modern LCD technology no panel tech type has completed every aspect of picture quality without a black mark against it & modern day QC on monitors is atrocious ( and there a pain to RMA )

as for color space, dithering can improve the appearance of graduation ( just like proper upscaling of content should yeild a reduction in banding and detail ) but you have to remember that game designers often use a shallow color space at around 6 - 8 bit and texture compression can lose some more.

Nvidia consumer cards are fully capable of 10bit however but they decided to reserve the tick box option for the quadro range .. because its nvidia rolleyes.gif so people have proper 10bit panels sat in front of them with SLI 980's or whatever and there restricted to 8bit color space and mostly 6bit games. My point on color though is that current 4k TV's are still relevant regardless of Rec 2020 , as you say Rec. 709 is the game standard ( or less i.e not a met standard ) because content .. there wont be any proper 10bit content for movie consumption ( no decent animated stuff, just boring box office superhero movies )for a long time and HDR can be implemented in video games without a standard.

The only reason to wait is for monitors to become big enough and fast enough @ 4k (5K ultrawide) with DP1.3


imo
post #425 of 545
Quote:
Originally Posted by amlett View Post

And I insist, people shoud see a good foris before bashing VA panels for gaming.
No one's bashing VA panels. In fact, i impatiently await news of the fabled 100 Hz SPVA from Samsung. The FG2421 simply isn't the quasi-perfect monitor people make it out to be. Were it not 120 Hz, no one would give it a 2nd look. It's, basically, the one-eyed king in the land of the blind. I'm really not sure why we haven't seen a competitor with comparable frequency. The response times on current SPVA and AMVA+ panels already match or surpass the ones of the FG2421 (including TP-Vision's VA panel made for the BDM4065UC).

And, like you said, i feel the time is not right to buy a 24'' 1080p monitor, regardless of its qualities. I will get whatever 1440p VA-type to come out with a high frequency.
    
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post #426 of 545
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pip Boy View Post

They have definatley improved I agree but unless you go for one that has specifically been tailored for low response and use rare technology like strobing ( forgetting that models QC issues ) then in general your going to be left wanting, at the current time, things do improve but isnt it interesting that 15 - 20 years into modern LCD technology no panel tech type has completed every aspect of picture quality without a black mark against it & modern day QC on monitors is atrocious ( and there a pain to RMA )

as for color space, dithering can improve the appearance of graduation ( just like proper upscaling of content should yeild a reduction in banding and detail ) but you have to remember that game designers often use a shallow color space at around 6 - 8 bit and texture compression can lose some more.

Nvidia consumer cards are fully capable of 10bit however but they decided to reserve the tick box option for the quadro range .. because its nvidia rolleyes.gif so people have proper 10bit panels sat in front of them with SLI 980's or whatever and there restricted to 8bit color space and mostly 6bit games. My point on color though is that current 4k TV's are still relevant regardless of Rec 2020 , as you say Rec. 709 is the game standard ( or less i.e not a met standard ) because content .. there wont be any proper 10bit content for movie consumption ( no decent animated stuff, just boring box office superhero movies )for a long time and HDR can be implemented in video games without a standard.

The only reason to wait is for monitors to become big enough and fast enough @ 4k (5K ultrawide) with DP1.3


imo

SPVA HDTV Con's have almost entirely been ironed out. High-end SPVA models have excellent viewing angles, uniformity, and can be calibrated to have IPS level of accuracy. LED technology also improved LCD response time and clarity when compared to older CCFL LCD panels, especially Sony's light-strobing. Its the PC monitor panels that are improving too slowly compared to TV panels, which are improved much faster. FG2421 was only possible because it used a specialized panel made for professional satellite-imagery work. Eizo used lower quality units of those panels to create FG2421. However, even IPS panel makers often design their panels for high quality Pro-level monitors, but end up using left-over defective panels (that have no passed Quality Control to be for Pro-level monitors) and use them for consumer-level monitors, charging a much lower price for them the price they charge for Pro-level panels. You can get "Backlight Bleeding" on just about any consumer LCD IPS panel and YET, pro-level IPS panels do not come with any "Backlight Bleeding". Panels with "Backlight Bleeding" or whichever other defects are simply panels that have not Quality Control for Pro-level panels.

All-in-all its LCD technology itself that is very limiting, preventing the needed specs for good PC gaming experience. LCD PANELS WERE MADE FOR OFFICE USE BECAUSE THEY WERE SHARP, LIGHT, AND FLICKER-FREE. They were not made for gaming, at least not until the most recent high refresh rate advancements with light-strobing, G-Sync, etc. Still, the best of the best gaming LCD pales to a good mid-range CRT monitor when it comes to contrast ratio (mage quality) and motion, which are the 2 most important factors to gaming.

Response time is not as important as refresh rate with light-strobing enabled. There is no way a normal 60Hz monitor with fast 4ms response time can provide a clearer image than a 120hz monitor with slow 8ms response time and with ULMB / LightBoost / Turbo 240 enabled. Plasma is an exception. Plasma @ 60Hz has AMAZING MOTION, one much clearer than any light-strobingb @ 120Hz.

These days only TN panels use 6bit + FRC dithering (except for ASUS ROG, which supposedly uses true 8bit panel). 6bit + FRC is close to 8bit, but not as good as true 8bit. NVidia CP does allow 10bit and 12bit and even 16bit output option selection for monitors that support such output. Most mid-range and high-end HDTV's have 12bit output, but 10bit is the true color depth for them because the other 2bits are from internal processing. It also happens that good VA monitors also support 10bit output, sometimes with true 10bit color depth and sometimes with 8bit + FRC dithering. Some monitors like FG2421 have their own hardware/panel-based dithering with 8bit output. Some clueless people call dithering CROSS-HATCHING and see it as a problem. while in reality it improves image quality and can only be seen close-up on white-ish backgrounds.

The most recent high-end plasma HDTV's have incredibly high contrast ratio, astonishing image quality and motion. Too bad they come with very high input lag as do many OLED and SPVA TV's, except for Sony's top units.

OLED has promise too. It beats plasma in contrast ratio, but it pales to plasma when it comes to motion. OLED needs light-strobing to become plasma replacement, but OLED is in very early development stages and so far very little progress... For now only LG is making progress when it comes to OLED technology.

CRT's had almost infinite contrast ratio due to super-low black levels. They usually came with excellent color accuracy and often supported high refresh rates. They had true 1ms response time and 1ms input lag, I think... Their only cons were - small screen size, dim image, curved screen, not as sharp as LCD, and very heavy. Sony GDM-FW900 24" Trinitron was such an awesome CRT monitor. It could do 2304x1440 @ 80Hz, had a a flat screen, and near-0 black levels (almost infinite contrast ratio), accurate colors, and rather excellent brightness. It does take much longer to calibrate CRT monitors and they get worse over time, but you can still get one in a near-new condition for $1000 from HardForum seller (Display forums).

I have hope that Panasonic's new IPS technology will go mainstream sometime. Panasonic developed new IPS technology that provides VA-level contrast ratio, but with all the Pro's of an IPS panel and none of the Con's of a VA panel. It does not have IPS glow either. There ARE some IPS panels with 2000:1 contrast ratio, but they are extremely rare.
Edited by MonarchX - 10/28/15 at 7:37am
post #427 of 545
@MonarchX

What about newer types of IPS? How well do these bridge the gap? Like AHVA, AH-IPS, PLS
 
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post #428 of 545
Can this monitor refresh at 72Hz for 24p Playback?
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post #429 of 545
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biorganic View Post

@MonarchX

What about newer types of IPS? How well do these bridge the gap? Like AHVA, AH-IPS, PLS

Those are still like any other IPS with poor black levels, low contrast and IPS glow., which further reduces contrast ratio perception. Panasonic's new IPS prototype technology with high contrast ratio is not used by any panel at this time. It is very expensive and IF we see it being used, it will be in HDTV's, not monitors.


Anyone with IPS or TN should calibrate their panels and get good bias lighting to at least compensate a little bit for the poor blacks, contrast, and glow.
post #430 of 545
Quote:
Originally Posted by amlett View Post

I think people saying VA's are not for gaming haven't seen ever a good FG2421 (one with no defects) with their own eyes.

Or they haven't seen a nice modern SPVA HDTV. The only reason I'm using a monitor instead is due to variable refresh rate and also size. But like many of you I'm waiting for a 100 Hz variable refresh rate version of this Samsung monitor.
 
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