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Mini-DTX Hype Thread (ITX with two PCIe slots!)

174K views 981 replies 84 participants last post by  skupples 
#1 ·
I think it is time we make a push for some of the big names to develop proper Mini-DTX motherboards for today's processors and chipsets. SFF enthusiast computing continues to enjoy mainstream popularity, with all the major players having enthusiast ITX boards. I believe Mini-DTX is a natural progression, and a technical no-brainer for the likes of EVGA, Asus, MSI, Gigabyte, Asrock and others.

The DTX and Mini-DTX form factors were developed by AMD back in 2007 for SFF applications. It never took off, because SFF computing hadn't hit the limelight. ITX was still new, and only being heavily used by VIA, who developed it. While normal DTX has advantages as well, in this thread we are interested in the Mini-DTX form factor.

Mini-DTX can best be described as a Mini-ITX board with an extra expansion slot. It retains the same front-to-back thickness as a normal ITX board. The only dimensional change is the increased height for the extra expansion slot. With this extra space, a second PCIe x16 connector can be added.


With the ability to add an extra PCIe slot, the benefits to this form factor become apparent. Multi-GPU setups (SLI and Crossfire) are feasible for the first time in a truly SFF build. Additionally, combinations such as a GPU and dedicated sound card, RAID controller or PCIe SSD are made possible.

This is the best part: Any Mini-ITX case that has two PCIe slot covers (for dual-slot GPUs) already supports Mini-DTX! The required space for the dual-slot PCIe bracket and video card guarantees space for the motherboard that will extend out under the GPU. Even the tiny Silverstone SG05 supports a Mini-DTX board!

Micro ATX is significantly larger in both height and depth, and as such even the smallest mATX case is a great deal larger than a Mini-ITX case. Mini-DTX is an extension of the already popular Mini-ITX form factor, and uses most Mini-ITX cases.

Mini-ITX users need not worry. I believe that Mini-DTX and Mini-ITX can continue alongside each other. Even if the "Enthusiast" motherboards become Mini-DTX, the case compatibility between the two will allow the dimensions of cases to stay the same. A Mini-ITX user is free to ignore the extra expansion slot, just as cases have had two slot openings for years now. For applications that require even smaller footprints than the two-slot ITX cases we already have, Intel's NUC or the Gigabyte Brix are suitable.

I'd like to open this up as a discussion among all of us in the SFF community, and show the motherboard vendors that demand exists for these boards. There might be a trademark issue with using the name "Mini-DTX," in which case I'd call it "Extended ITX" or "ITX Plus." Some are just sold as mATX boards even though they only have two slots. Regardless, I think there are nothing but advantages to moving to this form factor. Motherboard vendors will enjoy the increase in board space for routing and placing components. Case manufacturers have nothing to change except the words on the box, stating support for Mini-DTX. (and many already list it) We, the enthusiasts and end users gain extra versatility without sacrificing case selection or desk space.
 
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#982 ·
SLI / CF? That would require single slot GPUs?

I don't see the point.
watercooling, with specially picked cards that have single slot 3rd party I/O

OR!!!!!

Extreme NVMe solution. 4X NVMe via PCIe...

you'd have 1x top of the line card running @ 16x, while you have 4 NVMe (via asus hyper m.2) humming @ 4x each.

boom, SFF performance redefined.
 
#3 ·
I second this! Don't get me wrong, I love my Rampage IV Gene and 350D but I just want to move down to something smaller and still retain all of the enthusiast qualities that my RIVG has!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lass3 View Post

SLI / CF? That would require single slot GPUs?

I don't see the point.
The point is, is that you could have a pretty small case (lets say the new Phanteks Enthoo Evolv) that supports a TON of watercooling and other options but only supports m-ITX boards. That is why m-DTX would be great.
 
#4 ·
#9 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by fleetfeather View Post

OHHHHHH Baby! Can we also try get some support for E-DTX on the x99 platform?
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As cool as it would be I just don't see that happening. Both Asus and EVGA have said that while it should technically be possible it would be cost-prohibitive considering how small a market that would be and the amount of work that would be needed to develop it.

Socket 2011 is huge and wouldn't leave much room on the board for everything else, even on mini-DTX. Here's a mockup I made a while ago that really shows this.

 
#10 ·
This is interesting as DTX only has one full PCIe lane to accommodate a single GPU at this time leaving the Short PCIe for an expansion slot for a dedicated Audio card, SSD, or smaller Add-on card. Until AIB partners release a short PCIe GPU at this point the only Crossfire and SLI we will see will be through dual GPU cards such as the AMD 7990, R9 295X2, Nivida 690, Titan-Z, Asus Mars 760...

MATX all the way if CrossfireX or SLI in a SFF. Silverstone's SG09/10 is the most compact MATX case that can accommodate this setup to date.
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#11 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aibohphobia View Post

As cool as it would be I just don't see that happening. Both Asus and EVGA have said that while it should technically be possible it would be cost-prohibitive considering how small a market that would be and the amount of work that would be needed to develop it.

Socket 2011 is huge and wouldn't leave much room on the board for everything else, even on mini-DTX. Here's a mockup I made a while ago that really shows this.

Yeah I heard Jacob say they tried to do a x99 mitx but ran out of room for DIMM slots, which is why I thought of E-DTX (wider than DTX, like how E-ATX is wider than ATX)
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#12 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by fleetfeather View Post

Yeah I heard Jacob say they tried to do a x99 mitx but ran out of room for DIMM slots, which is why I thought of E-DTX (wider than DTX, like how E-ATX is wider than ATX)
tongue.gif
But then it's even more of a niche market and you're not too far off from mATX at that point.
tongue.gif


I'd rather see more really compact mATX cases that make use of SFX PSUs instead of non-standard form factors (I'm talking about E-Mini-DTX, I'm all for more Mini-DTX). I'm currently working on one but it'll be some time before it's ready but the Silverstone 600W is plenty capable of running a Haswell-E system and SLI 970s with modest overclocking so hopefully Silverstone does something like a smaller version of the SG09.
 
#13 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aibohphobia View Post

But then it's even more of a niche market and you're not too far off from mATX at that point.
tongue.gif


I'd rather see more really compact mATX cases that make use of SFX PSUs instead of non-standard form factors (I'm talking about E-Mini-DTX, I'm all for more Mini-DTX). I'm currently working on one but it'll be some time before it's ready but the Silverstone 600W is plenty capable of running a Haswell-E system and SLI 970s with modest overclocking so hopefully Silverstone does something like a smaller version of the SG09.
Heh,

The biggest concern for me regarding mATX is the extra length of the board, rather than the width. After all, your GPU tends to hang past the side of mITX boards atm anyway. The obvious exception is cards with 170mm PCB's, but alas most mITX cases don't make great use of that width dimension anyways

I suppose I could be happy with DTX z97 too, but I'd rather see mobo manufacturers aim for the stars, rather than aim for the moon
tongue.gif
 
#16 ·
Yeah I would love to see some mDTX boards, too!

One application that I have in mind is using a hardware encoding capture card in a SFF or even uSFF build. As these are great for LAN parties, and quite a few people like to record footage from their PCs, it could be a viable option to specialize the build by using a capture capture card to nearly annihilate the frame drops when recording instead of using a high performance and energy consuming CPU to merely lower them.

Also, high end HTPCs could use TV tuner cards and a dedicated GPU, which would be awesome.
 
#17 ·
Good points so far everyone!

As far as X99 on mITX/mDTX, I would love that, but I fear it's just not feasable. Shuttle did it with X79 on one of their form factor boards (which are very similar to full DTX):



A Mini-DTX X99 would be epic though, even if it was only dual channel SODIMMs. I hope one day we can look at full DTX LGA2011-3 boards, but they will break compatibility with some cases.

And again, for those who favor a dual slot/air cooled card, you don't have to use the extra slot.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hyp36rmax View Post

This is interesting as DTX only has one full PCIe lane to accommodate a single GPU at this time leaving the Short PCIe for an expansion slot for a dedicated Audio card, SSD, or smaller Add-on card.
My example picture showed a board with an x16 and an x1 slot, but that doesn't have to be the case (and indeed, if I could find a picture of a Mini-DTX board with two x16 slots I wouldn't have made this thread.)
 
#20 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by armourcore9brker View Post

This is an old render from the Z77 days.


All credit for the render goes to Confusis from sffr.
I think @Dyson Poindexter meant if he could find a picture of a real mDTX board with two x16 slots, he would've bought that and been happy ever after without a need to open this thread which aims to counteract the lack of exactly those boards.
 
#21 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dyson Poindexter View Post

Good points so far everyone!

As far as X99 on mITX/mDTX, I would love that, but I fear it's just not feasable. Shuttle did it with X79 on one of their form factor boards (which are very similar to full DTX):



A Mini-DTX X99 would be epic though, even if it was only dual channel SODIMMs. I hope one day we can look at full DTX LGA2011-3 boards, but they will break compatibility with some cases.

And again, for those who favor a dual slot/air cooled card, you don't have to use the extra slot.
thumb.gif

My example picture showed a board with an x16 and an x1 slot, but that doesn't have to be the case (and indeed, if I could find a picture of a Mini-DTX board with two x16 slots I wouldn't have made this thread.)
For sure point taken
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. I'm with you if we can get an X99 mDTX with two separate 16x PCIe then that would be awesome! Until manufacturers jump i'll be following this with great interest
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#22 ·
Put me on the list! If all itx boards moved to DTX, there would be no loss for ITX users (extra slot doesnt need to be used/fits in all existing itx cases with dual slots), but a gain for those who want pcie audio or SSDs along with a graphics card, or dual watercooled gpus.

I dont know jack about mobo design, but it seems like adding another slot shouldnt be that excessive? I could be totally wrong.
 
#23 ·
I was thinking of that Shuttle board when I read the OP, even if it isn't officially mDTX it's pretty much what I have been wanting to get. I'm mostly in it for LGA 2011 and the 4 DIMM support. But I very much like that form factor of the Shuttle board, where it is longer horizontally, about as long as a standard ATX/mATX board.

Something like this X99 mATX board, but only 2 PCIe slots shorter.



One other thing to consider with a DTX-sized board is that it's rectangular unlike mATX which is square. So it can be oriented vertically or horizontally for more potential in case sizes and modding.
 
#24 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccRicers View Post

I was thinking of that Shuttle board when I read the OP, even if it isn't officially mDTX it's pretty much what I have been wanting to get. I'm mostly in it for LGA 2011 and the 4 DIMM support. But I very much like that form factor of the Shuttle board, where it is longer horizontally, about as long as a standard ATX/mATX board.

Something like this X99 mATX board, but only 2 PCIe slots shorter.



One other thing to consider with a DTX-sized board is that it's rectangular unlike mATX which is square. So it can be oriented vertically or horizontally for more potential in case sizes and modding.
Yep, move the m.2 slot to a riser or around back, then have a PCIe x16 in both slots! Should be doable. I'm sure LGA2011-3 has a lot more requirements as far as routing and board layers, but Shuttle was able to do it, and they're not even a huge OEM.

I'm a big fan of "shoebox" cases, most of which would handle a full DTX board with no issues.
 
#25 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccRicers View Post

I was thinking of that Shuttle board when I read the OP, even if it isn't officially mDTX it's pretty much what I have been wanting to get. I'm mostly in it for LGA 2011 and the 4 DIMM support. But I very much like that form factor of the Shuttle board, where it is longer horizontally, about as long as a standard ATX/mATX board.
Shuttle's motherboards are actually deeper than mATX/ATX, by about an inch. A comparison of the two form factors, scaled to match:



DTX is really what you're asking for - essentially mATX minus two slots:



And Mini-DTX is DTX with the depth cut down to mini-ITX size.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dyson Poindexter View Post

I'm a big fan of "shoebox" cases, most of which would handle a full DTX board with no issues.
I don't know about that. DTX is 74mm deeper than mini-ITX, which is a problem for a number of shoebox mini-ITX cases. The SG07/08 and Node 304, for example, wouldn't have the room due to the PSU being in front of the motherboard. It might work in the SG05/06, but the depth of the case (276mm), minus the bezel thickness (10mm?) wouldn't leave quite enough room for a standard 25mm thick front fan with a DTX motherboard (244mm).

The cases I could see DTX working in are the the Coolermaster Elite 120/130 with the drive cage removed, and maybe Silverstone's upcoming SG05 update, the SG13.
 
#26 ·
Hey, look! A link!

http://www.nmediapc.com/ATX.htm

So basically, mDTX is just mATX with some specific dimensions, as is mITX (technically).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Insan1tyOne View Post

The point is, is that you could have a pretty small case (lets say the new Phanteks Enthoo Evolv) that supports a TON of watercooling and other options but only supports m-ITX boards. That is why m-DTX would be great.
You called the EVOLV small, your argument is invalid.
tongue.gif
No, really - the thing is the size of some of the smaller ATX mid-towers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fleetfeather View Post

Dual channel DDR4 (if you want quad channel, go mATX, seriously)
Excuse me?! SODIMMs, sir! Look at your laptop. Two SODIMMs in a line would be maybe 10% longer than a single DIMM. The only "issue" is that the frequency is much lower than desktop RAM.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fleetfeather View Post

Heh,

The biggest concern for me regarding mATX is the extra length of the board, rather than the width. After all, your GPU tends to hang past the side of mITX boards atm anyway. The obvious exception is cards with 170mm PCB's, but alas most mITX cases don't make great use of that width dimension anyways

I suppose I could be happy with DTX z97 too, but I'd rather see mobo manufacturers aim for the stars, rather than aim for the moon
tongue.gif
You do realize that mATX is a very broad standard, right? It's simply using a certain placement of standoffs and must be between 171mm and 244mm in both dimensions. That means up to the four-slot, four-DIMM square we all know and love all the way down to something negligibly larger than mITX.

There are mATX boards that fit the mDTX standard (almost) exactly, but are labeled mATX. ECS has some, H61 and H81 I believe.

mDTX itself is just mITX plus an extra 33mm of height. Widen it to a 203mm square, and it ought to fit in most mITX cases while maintaining quad-channel and dual x16 slots.
 
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