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post #81 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by vpex View Post

Oops redface.gif, must have missed that.

So something like a TP Link WDR3500 for $48 with the Unifi as the AP?

Would look good if i was in his shoes. Shame they don't sell consumer routers without wifi anymore. simple enough to solve, disable wifi on tp link. smile.gif
post #82 of 105
A note to everyone....

Microwave likes to trend downwards in a broadcast, so ideally you want your access point (wireless router for some of you) up higher in the home, not down in the basement. Basically as the RF travels away from the broadcast it will "flow" downwards, think like water, but not as extreme.....

Generally you want it centered in the home as much as possible, as the spectrum we are talking about doesn't trend down too much over a few hundred feet. However, it doesn't (unless you are broadcasting it directionally) travel upwards. So if you have your broadcast in the basement, and you are upstairs, the results are not going to be as good.

Three story home? Put it middle floor middle of that floor, mounted high if you can. You get the idea.

EDIT:

Oh, and another drawback of being in the basement - typically there are a lot of house mechanical components (plumbing, electrical) in the "roof" of the basement, as that is the bottom of the bottom living floor. These extra physical obstructions can ever so slightly impact performance as well.
Edited by PostalTwinkie - 10/21/14 at 3:27pm
    
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post #83 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by PostalTwinkie View Post

A note to everyone....

Microwave likes to trend downwards in a broadcast, so ideally you want your access point (wireless router for some of you) up higher in the home, not down in the basement. Basically as the RF travels away from the broadcast it will "flow" downwards, think like water, but not as extreme.....

Generally you want it centered in the home as much as possible, as the spectrum we are talking about doesn't trend down too much over a few hundred feet. However, it doesn't (unless you are broadcasting it directionally) travel upwards. So if you have your broadcast in the basement, and you are upstairs, the results are not going to be as good.

Three story home? Put it middle floor middle of that floor, mounted high if you can. You get the idea.

EDIT:

Oh, and another drawback of being in the basement - typically there are a lot of house mechanical components (plumbing, electrical) in the "roof" of the basement, as that is the bottom of the bottom living floor. These extra physical obstructions can ever so slightly impact performance as well.

Sir that is extremely false. height simply clears obstacles. microwaves, like light, are part of the EM spectrum, and unless you have a black hole in your dwelling, gravity has no meaningful effect on RF propagation. height clears STUFF - e.g. cabinets, appliances, etc. STUFF blocks RF, microwaves do not flow remotely like water.
Edited by u3b3rg33k - 10/21/14 at 9:02pm
 
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post #84 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by vpex View Post

Yeah so any router will work with it, if you really wanted you could get a Ubiquiti ERL, Edge Router Lite for $99 or maybe less on eBay. Its all configured through a similar web UI to the Unifi AP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by XanderTheGoober View Post

This was discussed earlier in the thread and i believe was determined to be too much setup. A consumer router will be simpler to setup.

y'all are confusing terms - and understandably so.

a router is a device that moves packets between networks - ubnt's ERL is meant to do this. a home "router" is actually a gateway device, not a "real router" (it won't ever take packets from the outside and hand them to the inside of your network of its own accord, unless you turn on port forwarding (not routing), or have a session open). the distinction is somewhat academic, but the point is the application. "real" "routers" don't run DHCP, uPNP, share printers/harddrives, etc.

I probably. need more airquotes to make the distinction clear.
 
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post #85 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by u3b3rg33k View Post


y'all are confusing terms - and understandably so.

a router is a device that moves packets between networks - ubnt's ERL is meant to do this. a home "router" is actually a gateway device, not a "real router" (it won't ever take packets from the outside and hand them to the inside of your network of its own accord, unless you turn on port forwarding (not routing), or have a session open). the distinction is somewhat academic, but the point is the application. "real" "routers" don't run DHCP, uPNP, share printers/harddrives, etc.

I probably. need more airquotes to make the distinction clear.

I dont think nobody is confusing nothing;

we were all talking about a consumer router, not a high end enterprise Cisco router, nor a Cisco switch attached to a DHCP/DNS server...

the consumer "routers" might have not the correct name, but it is what's call, is a multipurpose device that has build in DHCP, NAT, and it is the default Gateway, that is why your computer has the same IP address for the gateway as for the DHCP server and the DNS server, and can share printers as some NAS devices to...
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post #86 of 105
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Originally Posted by u3b3rg33k View Post

Sir that is extremely false. height simply clears obstacles. microwaves, like light, are part of the EM spectrum, and unless you have a black hole in your dwelling, gravity has no meaningful effect on RF propagation. height clears STUFF - e.g. cabinets, appliances, etc. STUFF blocks RF, microwaves do not flow remotely like water.

Well, we were trying to keep things entirely simple in this thread and not go into the complexities of RF or networking hardware, for the sake of a few. However, if you feel the need to want to come in an complicate things. Let's get this done.....

First; no one is confusing the router with the access point - or as you call it a gateway. The terms are being used interchangeably here for the sake of discussion. Technically, a consumer wireless router is a combination of four key systems: Router, Switch, Radio, and Array (Antenna). All of which work in conjunction with one another to provide a network solution.

Secondly; RF will indeed trend "downward" off a broadcast - as nearly every array used in a broadcast situation has a built in down-tilt. This down-tilt is either an electronic down-tilt, or a physical configuration by the end user. The end result is that the broadcast itself is already going to trend downward. Part of the reason the manufacturers do this is to help with noise issues. Instead of having a broadcast traveling out to horizon and causing noise, it will instead travel a much shorter distance. Depending on device you are looking at a ~3 degree to ~6 degree down-tilt, which aside from ERP, is part of the reason you don't see your neighbors radio that lives 8 streets over. Assuming other obstructions are out of the way.

Point being; Broadcasts, especially home routers, do not broadcast well to an area above them, they are designed to broadcast out and slightly down. Putting an access point below you is going to negatively impact the performance. You might catch the side lobe of the broadcast, but you are only hurting the situation. Center the broadcast to the home for best overall results in the home.

Now, this isn't even talking about the RF applications like Ground Wave Propagation which are used at the much lower frequencies, and do indeed follow the curvature of the earth, and do not require LOS. Again, this isn't something that really matters in the context of this conversation, and bringing it up would only further confuses the OP.

Also, your statement on "real" routers is a bit dated. "Real" routers - I am talking Enterprise level products here - do indeed have the ability to act as a DHCP server, as well as a router. They typically aren't deployed in this fashion, having a dedicated DHCP server instead, for management and reliability concerns. The router being left to do just that, routing.

So - Now that you have felt the need to come into a very basic conversation, started by someone who said they have limited knowledge of wireless and networking in general, and attempt to show off what you know and complicate things. I ask you this; what has your "contribution" been to this thread, other than possibly adding confusion for people?
Edited by PostalTwinkie - 10/22/14 at 11:08am
    
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post #87 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by kayan View Post

So, your post convinced me and my wife to get the UniFi AP....

But last night my 2.4 band died again, and with it so did the wired connection, it was odd. Before the 2.4 died, it was chugging, I was trying to stream a non hD video, then everything quit. I turned off my wired desktop and after the 2.4 came back fine. I will say however, that when everything crashed the wired came back up immediately, and worked as though nothing had happened.

It's it possible that my WiFi is killing my wired connections? Or do you think it's just the whole thing is dying?

I guess that if I get the UniFi AP that I can use it for years to come, regardless of router?

Chances are the whole device is going. They way these consumer grade units are built everything is kind of together, so it is very possible that some circuitry is going which is shared among each part of the unit. Also, have you found a router yet, and which UAP did you decide to go with? For the sake of discussion, I am wondering if you decided to go with the AC version or the much cheaper 2.4GHZ N version.
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post #88 of 105
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PostalTwinkie View Post

Well, we were trying to keep things entirely simple in this thread and not go into the complexities of RF or networking hardware, for the sake of a few. However, if you feel the need to want to come in an complicate things. Let's get this done.....

First; no one is confusing the router with the access point - or as you call it a gateway. The terms are being used interchangeably here for the sake of discussion. Technically, a consumer wireless router is a combination of four key systems: Router, Switch, Radio, and Array (Antenna). All of which work in conjunction with one another to provide a network solution.

Secondly; RF will indeed trend "downward" off a broadcast - as nearly every array used in a broadcast situation has a built in down-tilt. This down-tilt is either an electronic down-tilt, or a physical configuration by the end user. The end result is that the broadcast itself is already going to trend downward. Part of the reason the manufacturers do this is to help with noise issues. Instead of having a broadcast traveling out to horizon and causing noise, it will instead travel a much shorter distance. Depending on device you are looking at a ~3 degree to ~6 degree down-tilt, which aside from ERP, is part of the reason you don't see your neighbors radio that lives 8 streets over. Assuming other obstructions are out of the way.

Point being; Broadcasts, especially home routers, do not broadcast well to an area above them, they are designed to broadcast out and slightly down. Putting an access point below you is going to negatively impact the performance. You might catch the side lobe of the broadcast, but you are only hurting the situation. Center the broadcast to the home for best overall results in the home.

Now, this isn't even talking about the RF applications like Ground Wave Propagation which are used at the much lower frequencies, and do indeed follow the curvature of the earth, and do not require LOS. Again, this isn't something that really matters in the context of this conversation, and bringing it up would only further confuses the OP.

Also, your statement on "real" routers is a bit dated. "Real" routers - I am talking Enterprise level products here - do indeed have the ability to act as a DHCP server, as well as a router. They typically aren't deployed in this fashion, having a dedicated DHCP server instead, for management and reliability concerns. The router being left to do just that, routing.

So - Now that you have felt the need to come into a very basic conversation, started by someone who said they have limited knowledge of wireless and networking in general, and attempt to show off what you know and complicate things. I ask you this; what has your "contribution" been to this thread, other than possibly adding confusion for people?

Postal, that was actually very informative how you explained it and was simple to understand. Thank you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wheth4400 View Post

Chances are the whole device is going. They way these consumer grade units are built everything is kind of together, so it is very possible that some circuitry is going which is shared among each part of the unit. Also, have you found a router yet, and which UAP did you decide to go with? For the sake of discussion, I am wondering if you decided to go with the AC version or the much cheaper 2.4GHZ N version.

I haven't decided on a router yet, but in reality I haven't had much chance to look yet. I did check that TP Link unit that was posted, I've not used that brand before. How is reliability? I've had hit our miss luck with D link. Their stuff is good when it works, except the standout 655. The one Asus I've had was garbage all around. In reality that's the only brand I generally stay away from (bad customer service experience from one of their reps). Although they do make some good hardware.

Anyway, as far as AP, we decided on the AC UniFi one. Yes the price is a lot more, but it will give us more flexibility and longevity as well. We've had two "routers" in the last two years totaling more than this AP will end up costing us. So, if it lasts even two years it'll be more than worth the cost. And from what I'm hearing here, and on other forums, these should last a good deal longer.

We haven't ordered the AP or the "router" yet. But hopefully we can afford it within the next week.

And a random question: Are all gigabit routers going to have roughly the same throughput for wired connections, or can this vary as greatly as Wi-Fi throughput?
    
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post #89 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by kayan View Post

Postal, that was actually very informative how you explained it and was simple to understand. Thank you.
I haven't decided on a router yet, but in reality I haven't had much chance to look yet. I did check that TP Link unit that was posted, I've not used that brand before. How is reliability? I've had hit our miss luck with D link. Their stuff is good when it works, except the standout 655. The one Asus I've had was garbage all around. In reality that's the only brand I generally stay away from (bad customer service experience from one of their reps). Although they do make some good hardware.

Anyway, as far as AP, we decided on the AC UniFi one. Yes the price is a lot more, but it will give us more flexibility and longevity as well. We've had two "routers" in the last two years totaling more than this AP will end up costing us. So, if it lasts even two years it'll be more than worth the cost. And from what I'm hearing here, and on other forums, these should last a good deal longer.

We haven't ordered the AP or the "router" yet. But hopefully we can afford it within the next week.

And a random question: Are all gigabit routers going to have roughly the same throughput for wired connections, or can this vary as greatly as Wi-Fi throughput?

Most routers should have relatively the same wired throughput.
post #90 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by christoph View Post


we were all talking about a consumer router, not a high end enterprise Cisco router, nor a Cisco switch attached to a DHCP/DNS server...

I wouldn't call ubnt's ERL a consumer router. I would highly recommend the average consumer stay away from such a device, since setting it up to do what they want it to do is more complicated than picking a WPA2 passphrase and changing the default password.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PostalTwinkie View Post

Well, we were trying to keep things entirely simple in this thread and not go into the complexities of RF or networking hardware, for the sake of a few. However, if you feel the need to want to come in an complicate things. Let's get this done.....

First; no one is confusing the router with the access point - or as you call it a gateway. The terms are being used interchangeably here for the sake of discussion. Technically, a consumer wireless router is a combination of four key systems: Router, Switch, Radio, and Array (Antenna). All of which work in conjunction with one another to provide a network solution.

Secondly; RF will indeed trend "downward" off a broadcast - as nearly every array used in a broadcast situation has a built in down-tilt. This down-tilt is either an electronic down-tilt, or a physical configuration by the end user. The end result is that the broadcast itself is already going to trend downward. Part of the reason the manufacturers do this is to help with noise issues. Instead of having a broadcast traveling out to horizon and causing noise, it will instead travel a much shorter distance. Depending on device you are looking at a ~3 degree to ~6 degree down-tilt, which aside from ERP, is part of the reason you don't see your neighbors radio that lives 8 streets over. Assuming other obstructions are out of the way.

Point being; Broadcasts, especially home routers, do not broadcast well to an area above them, they are designed to broadcast out and slightly down. Putting an access point below you is going to negatively impact the performance. You might catch the side lobe of the broadcast, but you are only hurting the situation. Center the broadcast to the home for best overall results in the home.

So - Now that you have felt the need to come into a very basic conversation, started by someone who said they have limited knowledge of wireless and networking in general, and attempt to show off what you know and complicate things. I ask you this; what has your "contribution" been to this thread, other than possibly adding confusion for people?

I disagree. once people start talking about using commercial grade gear, they should be informed that they're probably not looking at what they think they are - if they already know that, fine.

You described RF as flowing like water. it does not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PostalTwinkie 
A note to everyone....

Microwave likes to trend downwards in a broadcast, so ideally you want your access point (wireless router for some of you) up higher in the home, not down in the basement. Basically as the RF travels away from the broadcast it will "flow" downwards, think like water, but not as extreme.....

microwaves are not special - an antenna pointing down IF it's configured that way is not the same as microwaves having a tendency to do something. My point here is that we should be giving out information that is correct, otherwise people build further assumptions off of what we tell them, and can come to conclusions that make no sense. why not just say "access points tend to aim microwaves in a slightly downward direction" rather than "Microwave likes to trend downwards in a broadcast" ?

Antennas are often aimed down for the same reason outdoor lights are often aimed down. Lighting up the sky with light/RF generally only makes sense if you're looking up, in a plane, or a satellite.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PostalTwinkie View Post

Well, we were trying to keep things entirely simple in this thread and not go into the complexities of RF or networking hardware, for the sake of a few. However, if you feel the need to want to come in an complicate things. Let's get this done.....
So - Now that you have felt the need to come into a very basic conversation, started by someone who said they have limited knowledge of wireless and networking in general, and attempt to show off what you know and complicate things. I ask you this; what has your "contribution" been to this thread, other than possibly adding confusion for people?

Let's do each other and the forum a favor, and not pretend to know what the other person is thinking. You're welcome to send me a PM and we can continue off topic discussions there.
Edited by u3b3rg33k - 10/22/14 at 7:41pm
 
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Q6700 @ 3.0 (stock volts) ASUS P5WDG2-WS PRO HIS 6950 2GB turbo (unlocked) 8GB DDR2 800 
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9550SX w/BBU + 4x 250GB 7.2k Raid 5 HL-DT-ST DVDRW GSA-H30L Kali Linux VNC (TC Rig, baby) 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
Dell QuietKey (PS2) Truepower Trio 650 Koolance PC3-420SL Logitech G5 
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Reginald
(14 items)
 
GLaDOS (v3)
(12 items)
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsGraphics
i7-970 @ 4.14GHz 1.350v P6T7 WS Supercomputer MSI 7970 GHz Edition HIS 6950 
RAMHard DriveHard DriveCooling
48GB Crucial Ballistix @1660MHz 9-9-9-27 Momentus XT intel 480GB 520 series INX-720 
OSMonitorMonitorMonitor
win7pro Soyo P-MVA 1200p 24" Dell 24" 1200p Dell 17" 4:3 (market tickers) 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
Dell Quietkey AX850 PC-Z60 Logitech G5 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Q6700 @ 3.0 (stock volts) ASUS P5WDG2-WS PRO HIS 6950 2GB turbo (unlocked) 8GB DDR2 800 
Hard DriveOptical DriveOSMonitor
9550SX w/BBU + 4x 250GB 7.2k Raid 5 HL-DT-ST DVDRW GSA-H30L Kali Linux VNC (TC Rig, baby) 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
Dell QuietKey (PS2) Truepower Trio 650 Koolance PC3-420SL Logitech G5 
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Overclock.net › Forums › Components › Network Hardware › My network is driving me bonkers....need some help/advice