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post #61 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hackshot View Post

where the xhair would end up if I was off 0.9.../400 of an inch

If you move your mouse 0.9/400 of an inch, it will not update a change on the screen because dpi is in integer counts. If you want to bring in hardware tolerance and differing dpi's on different surfaces, than that is another story. Only at dpi higher than 400(lets make this the true dpi) can your screen update 0.9/400 of an inch. Again, if the higher dpi given same cm/360 as lower dpi does not jitter past the grain-displacement (the displacement it takes for the minimum movement to update a change on the screen) of the lower dpi, then it is not less stable. That's all you have to understand. Seriously, that's it.

Lets not over-complicate things guys...
Edited by Nilizum - 10/17/14 at 2:42pm
post #62 of 81
Use whatever works.

Getting into technical things will just hurt you on a mental level.
post #63 of 81
^ time to bring the hurt

For games that communicate player yaw as a 16-bit number (eg: quake engine heritage games), the minimum angle you can turn is ~0.0055 degrees. Assuming m_yaw is the default of 0.022, the lowest useful sensitivity (1 count = smallest angle change possible) is ~0.25.

At the maximum allowable distance in Source engine games (~56756, assuming a 3D diagonal across a 32768 box), you have a granularity of ~5.44 in-game units. Most things you need to hit are probably larger than this. Also, the range is significantly further than the actual game draw distance. Also if it were drawn, you would need a very high resolution display to see it.

With these values in mind, you would need ~4150cpi for a 40cm/360 sensitivity.
Edited by povohat - 10/17/14 at 3:56pm
post #64 of 81
Please continue being as technical as possible.
post #65 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by povohat View Post

^ time to bring the hurt

For games that communicate player yaw as a 16-bit number (eg: quake engine heritage games), the minimum angle you can turn is ~0.0055 degrees. Assuming m_yaw is the default of 0.022, the lowest useful sensitivity (1 count = smallest angle change possible) is ~0.25.

At the maximum allowable distance in Source engine games (~56756, assuming a 3D diagonal across a 32768 box), you have a granularity of ~5.44 in-game units. Most things you need to hit are probably larger than this. Also, the range is significantly further than the actual game draw distance. Also if it were drawn, you would need a very high resolution display to see it.

With these values in mind, you would need ~4150cpi for a 40cm/360 sensitivity.

At that distance, wouldn't that target be a lot smaller than a pixel on something like 1080p?
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post #66 of 81
Yes, significantly smaller. I did mention you would need a very high resolution display to even see it, but couldn't be bothered trying to figure out exactly how high.
post #67 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nilizum View Post

Again, NO, not when the d is the same. If the displacement is the same, there is no "more accurate stopping".

With my idea of human limitations the fake sense people get from "more accurate stopping" would simply stem from the fact that the user gave the "wrong" input. Because he had the ability to give his input more accurately. Basically, the lack of precision from 400 dpi would've "swiped the mistake under the rug" sorta speak, or shown it more excessively, making him correct.

Like I said, I agree with the technicalities, but I'm simply saying this is a means to limit "user error".

(I don't use 400 dpi myself, at 1080p, I'm just a wee bit beyond skipping pixels near the crosshair with my sens anyways)
Edited by CorruptBE - 10/17/14 at 5:09pm
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post #68 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nilizum View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hackshot View Post

o-l= where the xhair would end up if I was off 0.9.../400 of an inch

If you move your mouse 0.9/400 of an inch, it will not update a change on the screen because dpi is in integer counts. [...].

Yeah, sorry, think I got a little confused there. I know new counts are only generated after a full distance of 1/400 of an inch of mouse movement, given 400dpi.

Guess what I should've written was 1-0.9.../400 of an inch to the left, whilst it, yes, was supposed to say "0.9.../400 of an inch to the right", there. That's why, in the example I gave, at 400dpi even though I was off 0.9.../400 inch to the right my crosshair was still in the place it would be if I made the movement perfectly - there wasn't sufficient erroneous movement to displace it (had I moved my mouse more 1-0.9.../400 of an inch to the right my xhair would've gone off-target, though). At 800 dpi, in the same example, an error of 0.9.../400 of an inch to the right results in the crosshair arriving at the third count position just because of that - 0.9.../400 of an inch at 800dpi won't generate 2 counts, but 1. It's still more unwanted counts than the 0 counts of 400dpi. That's the aforementioned "margin for error".

I understand that talking about not specific, adimentional points of the 3D world, but objects with height and length, higher dpis yield more positions I can aim at, inside those objects, thus higher dpi would make for a higher margin for error in terms of lack of movement, but a smaller margin for excessive movement, which, during gameplay, in my experience, is a far more common problem(think flick shots).

Again I don't think you said anything wrong in regards to how mouse - game interact, but I don't see how you claim it's not true that at 400dpi I can move my mouse 0.99.../400 of an inch wrongly and the cursor will still be where I wanted it to be, or that 400dpi demands more movement of the hand to produce a change in the cursor position than 800dpi....
Edited by Hackshot - 10/17/14 at 11:18pm
post #69 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nilizum View Post

If you perceive it as "angle proportionality" whatever that means, honestly the wrong terminology in a 3D world, then you still don't get what dpi really is. "degree proportionality" / granularity is relative to mice resolution, and has NOTHING to do with displacement d proportionality.


Actually I am talking about higher cpi leading to more likely inconsistencies in displacement caused by human error.
I'm sorry to see that using the word "angle" instead of "degree" confused you, English is not my first language, some mental flexibility helps understanding. One could argue that in euclidean geometry "points" can't have a circumference, but whatever.. I think there are more important things to discuss.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nilizum View Post

Again, NO, not when the d is the same. If the displacement is the same, there is no "more accurate stopping". How about you not be a hypocrite and try to understand what I am saying? I work in the field of mouse, and it's rude of you to say that I do not comprehend such trivial misunderstandings.

If you want to believe in the wrong things, then so be it, I don't care, but for everyone else that is reading this, I'd prefer them to not get their heads mixed up about the wrong things.

And what sector do you work in specifically? Marketing?
lol I just had to.. don't take it seriously.
I don't see anything hypocritical about questioning people's statements, I actually think it works the other way around.

Apparently this whole controversy is based on the fact that you are talking about constant "d" and I am saying that the same movement on the pad can lead to different "d" based on mouse resolution.




Now can we stop throwing jabs at each other and eventually discuss in a more constructive manner?
There are actually three people here trying to get that message across...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nilizum View Post

In layman's terms, a mouse like the G400 that doesn't jitter in 400 and 800 dpi, and sensitivity is 2 with 400 dpi, and 800 dpi the sensitivity is 1, the 800 dpi setting TRUMPS the 400 dpi no matter what excuses you can muster up.

Isn't that because it's mcu recalculated and not native like 800?
post #70 of 81
800 wouldn't trump 400 if 400 is filtering out jitter and responds just as well.
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