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Single pass radiator

post #1 of 19
Thread Starter 
I added a GPU block to my loop, and of course now my CPU temps have gone up. I'm also seeing a slow rise in temps over an hour of gaming or so.

I need to add some more rad space and I have room for another slim 240 rad in my rad box.

My current loop is:

Pump :

D5

Blocks :

EK Supreme HF
EK FC-980 GTX
Asus Formula VI VRM Block

Current Radiator

RX360 v3 with x3 NF-F12s.


My first thought was, get an Alphacool ST30 with Noctua NF-F12s running at 600-800 rpms.


However it occurs to me that a single pass radiator (e.g. Hardware Labs Black Ice Nemesis GTS 240 X-Flow) would make the tubing in my rad box a lot simpler.

How much performance would I be giving up?
post #2 of 19
Best dual pass are about 10-15% better performance than single pass radiator. So if your delta air to water is 10C with dual, you will have maybe a degree and half higher cpu/gpu temps.

Triple pass cool no better than double pass, just increase the restriction, so performance of loop goes down. Quad pass the same, just lose performance.

Prior to computer rads, some testing was done by Marci that helped developed thermochill rads.

Here is testing by swiftech as well:
http://www.swiftech.com/Resources/White_Papers/Assessment%20of%20Radiator%20Performance.pdf
Edited by opt33 - 10/15/14 at 2:22pm
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post #3 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wihglah View Post

I added a GPU block to my loop, and of course now my CPU temps have gone up. I'm also seeing a slow rise in temps over an hour of gaming or so.

I need to add some more rad space and I have room for another slim 240 rad in my rad box.

My current loop is:

Pump :

D5

Blocks :

EK Supreme HF
EK FC-980 GTX
Asus Formula VI VRM Block

Current Radiator

RX360 v3 with x3 NF-F12s.


My first thought was, get an Alphacool ST30 with Noctua NF-F12s running at 600-800 rpms.


However it occurs to me that a single pass radiator (e.g. Hardware Labs Black Ice Nemesis GTS 240 X-Flow) would make the tubing in my rad box a lot simpler.

How much performance would I be giving up?

Either should work fine, HW Labs uses really slim tubing, you'll maybe see a dozen watts of cooling @10c dT between the GTS and GTS-Xflow. Whichever makes tubing routing easier would be my personal recommendation. -Z
Quote:
Originally Posted by opt33 View Post

Best dual pass are about 10-15% better performance than single pass radiator. So if your delta air to water is 10C with dual, you will have maybe a degree and half higher cpu/gpu temps.

Triple pass cool no better than double pass, just increase the restriction, so performance of loop goes down. Quad pass the same, just lose performance.

Prior to computer rads, some testing was done by Marci that helped developed thermochill rads.

Here is testing by swiftech as well:
http://www.swiftech.com/Resources/White_Papers/Assessment%20of%20Radiator%20Performance.pdf

You're vastly exaggerating the difference in temps between the rads. Beyond that pass count is only one way to increase turbulence in the loop. The inner width of the lanes also effects turbulence, and HW labs uses REALLY thin lanes. The GTS is a single row radiator, with REALLY thin lanes. The performance difference between the xflow and Uflow GTS was negligible. Realistically speaking you might notice a couple dozen or so watts @10dT between the ST-30 and the GTS xflow. That would result in maybe a .2c difference in coolant temps, which would likely mean entirely negligible core temps.

-Z
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post #4 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZytheEKS View Post

Either should work fine, HW Labs uses really slim tubing, you'll maybe see a dozen watts of cooling @10c dT between the GTS and GTS-Xflow. Whichever makes tubing routing easier would be my personal recommendation. -Z
You're vastly exaggerating the difference in temps between the rads. Beyond that pass count is only one way to increase turbulence in the loop. The inner width of the lanes also effects turbulence, and HW labs uses REALLY thin lanes. The GTS is a single row radiator, with REALLY thin lanes. The performance difference between the xflow and Uflow GTS was negligible. Realistically speaking you might notice a couple dozen or so watts @10dT between the ST-30 and the GTS xflow. That would result in maybe a .2c difference in coolant temps, which would likely mean entirely negligible core temps.

-Z

Swiftech tested it, as did Marci from Thermocill, both make rads and both tested them with excellent testing methods, so I am going to go with reliable testing of manufacturers who looked at both types. Same percentages are quoted by auto manufactures. Bottom line, best dual pass performing are about 10-15% better than single pass.

But, regardless,10-15% is a negligible difference, considering the least restrictive fan filters (metallic ones) cause loss of 10%, and more restrictive fabric ones can cause 20% loss in rad performance, and yes there are exhaustive tests by many on those, including myself with calibrated thermocouples capable of 0.1C repeatabilility. A 1C difference in 10C delta, or 0.5C in 5C delta is insignificant.

Perhaps the point you were trying to make, is that if you compare the best performing single pass rad to a low performing dual pass radiator, the single pass may perform better, as other design differences also make a large difference. But when testing 2 similar designed rads, where difference is primarily just single vs dual pass, the performance difference is 10-15%, then triple pass typically performs worse than double because restriction outweighs cooling benefits, as does quad.
Edited by opt33 - 10/17/14 at 8:17am
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post #5 of 19
The white paper contains the comparison of the BI Pro and the Bi Cross which is the same core in dual and single pass configs. There was about a 5W difference out of 160W.
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post #6 of 19
Yes, at that one fan speed with that rad tested it is less on that flow curve. I am sure you can find examples of single pass outperforming dual pass as well. 8-10 years ago, when there was something to debate since data wasn't known, there were people arguing both ways that single pass was better or dual pass was better, but Marci from thermochill had tested both ways with similar rads and quoted 10-15% along with data in xtreme thread somewhere. I don't see multiple fan speeds curve in swiftechs, and too long ago to remember.
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post #7 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by opt33 View Post

Yes, at that one fan speed with that rad tested it is less on that flow curve. I am sure you can find examples of single pass outperforming dual pass as well. 8-10 years ago, when there was something to debate since data wasn't known, there were people arguing both ways that single pass was better or dual pass was better, but Marci from thermochill had tested both ways with similar rads and quoted 10-15% along with data in xtreme thread somewhere. I don't see multiple fan speeds curve in swiftechs, and too long ago to remember.

Right, but you're discussing radiators in general, we're talking about the specific radiator the OP was talking about which is the GTS . Yes, the majority of U-pass are notably better than x-flow performance wise, no one is debating that and the market will reflect that. The HWLabs GTS, on the other hand, have such restrictive tubing that the increased turbulence from two pass does not increase performance that much in comparison to an xflow, again, for that specific radiator. The fact that HWLabs, one of the best radiator manufacturers, still makes x-flow in only the GTS line reflects that point.

-Z
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post #8 of 19
^ Spot on, the GTS rads are relatively a lot more restrictive than any other I have tested so far thanks to the thinnest tube channels I have measured. But that comes with the added benefit (Assuming you have the pump power) of less obstruction to airflow from thicker tubes, and also turbulent flow inside at lower flowrates than thicker channels, and especially the round tube rads.
post #9 of 19
The Koolance HX rads also use very thin tubes. I think 1.3mm instead of a more regular 2mm. That makes them very restrictive for a radiator too.
They are quite well built and finished but I found their performance lacking at anything less than high fan speeds. They were the most airflow sensitive rads I have ever used.
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post #10 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by geggeg View Post

^ Spot on, the GTS rads are relatively a lot more restrictive than any other I have tested so far thanks to the thinnest tube channels I have measured. But that comes with the added benefit (Assuming you have the pump power) of less obstruction to airflow from thicker tubes, and also turbulent flow inside at lower flowrates than thicker channels, and especially the round tube rads.

It isnt tubes that restrict the air flow, it is fpi. And hardware labs GTS 240 Xflow has 30 fpi, which will require high speed fans to perform well, vs alphacool ST30 fpi of 8. Wihglah is using 1500 rpm fan speeds, much more suited to alphacool ST30 fpi.

According to HW labs own site, the 360X (20 fpi) outperforms the GTS rad both xflow (30 fpi) and dual pass. And martin testing shows alphacool ST30 outperforming 360X by 7.5% at 1400 rpms fan speed (closest to Wihglah fans), so it will beat GTS series even more at same fan speed, especially given GTS has even higher fpi.

If you look at what specifically Wihglah was asking between alphacool ST30 and GTS 240 X flow, it is the high fpi (30) that will make the 240X flow worse than alphacool ST30 for his fans. Unless he wants to change and go with loud fans, ie >2000 rpms.
Edited by opt33 - 10/22/14 at 7:04am
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