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[KitGuru] AMD’s Lisa Su: high-end ‘Zen’ x86 cores set to be available in 2016 - Page 8

post #71 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by CynicalUnicorn View Post

Depends on what you're doing, but ~10% in general is safe.

10% is too low vs sandy.

~8-13% over ivy.. which was still 4% or so faster than sandy. There's a reason 4790k video encodes like a 3930k with one core disabled on air cooling
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post #72 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post

Here's the thing though, "perform" doesn't necessarily have to mean "it will have skylake IPC and power consumption".

I agree that AMD is in a world of hurt if Zen doesn't do well as a product. But what that "doing well" means is completely dependent on what the target market, goals, etc. for the product are.

This is my biggest problem when it comes to forum discussions about 'zen'. As far as I know we don't really know what the goals of the new architecture are. We know that it's an x86 core being developed alongside an ARM core and designs based on these cores are supposed to be pin compatible, and afaik the cores themselves are supposed to be somewhat compatible in the sense that they can be relatively easily placed in chip designs made for either one of the cores.

But again the point is, outside of those specific things we don't know what's happening and we don't know what's being targeted.

-Is the core supposed to replace both the cat cores and the bulldozer cores?
-Is the core targeted more at lower power than pure performance?
-How far in each direction is it supposed to scale?
-Is the design supposed to be low latency / high throughput?
-lots of cores / few cores?
-importance of FPU?
-etc.

I think the issue is that lots of people are assuming that "performing well" means that we're going to get some skylake i7 killer. It could be that, if that's the target for AMD, but then again it could be something completely different.

Also let's be honest here. No matter what AMD does they're not going to catch intel. Not with a single leap anyway. Fact of the matter is that intel's 8-core designs are pretty much twice as fast as AMD's. And if that wasn't enough, intel has chips with 10 cores added on top of that 8. One leap isn't going to erase that difference, it's too big. And will be much bigger by the time Zen gets here.

Here's what we know:
K12, the custom ARM chips is going to have "a bigger engine" than Zen.
K12 is aimed primarily at low-power applications like ultra-low power client (probably thin client), dense server, and embedded. And AMD's plan is to devote 50% of their business to those and other high-growth markets (almost all of which are low-power, like mobile devices).
The Bulldozer is increasingly low power with Carrizo-L apparently replacing Beema at 15W and AMD's target TDP for desktop Carrizo being 45W, if possible.

Steamroller IPC is only around 15% higher than Jaguar/Puma's in single threaded workloads, though Steamroller loses that advantage in multi-threaded workloads.

Zen is probably going to replace both the small-cat and big-construction cores, which means covering <5W to 45W(?) or lower TDPs across mobile and desktop. Based on what we know it's safe to say Zen probably won't be some kind of monolithic super core intended to fight Intel at the high-end. It's intended to cover low to mid range products. Unless XV really delivers on a magical improvement of at least 30% over Steamroller - not dubious "up to x%" improvements - Zen probably won't be coming anywhere near Skylake performance.

First, we'll wait and see what XV has to offer. It's also important for AMD to bring down cost per unit for their APUs and motherboards since they can't just give out a rebate on every single part they ship to OEMs and still turn a profit, so I really doubt AMD will be offering anything high-end.
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post #73 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyro999 View Post

10% is too low vs sandy.

~8-13% over ivy.. which was still 4% or so faster than sandy. There's a reason 4790k video encodes like a 3930k with one core disabled on air cooling

At what frequencies? Stock vs stock, OC vs OC, or X GHz vs X GHz? I'm getting 5.0 Sandy cores in the 3930k vs 4.6 Sandy-equivalent cores in the 4790k using the middle number in your range (10.5%) and assuming some arbitrary identical frequency.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadboy90 View Post

I wonder how much longer my 8320 can hold out for. He only can hit 4.4ghz so i cant imagine he will last till late 2016.

Depends on what you're doing, but it's roughly as good as a ~3-3.5GHz i5 in multithreaded stuff. It's something like 2.5-3 times as fast as the consoles' CPUs, so you've got that going for you!
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post #74 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyro999 View Post

10% is too low vs sandy.

~8-13% over ivy.. which was still 4% or so faster than sandy. There's a reason 4790k video encodes like a 3930k with one core disabled on air cooling

I have had all CPUs since Core i7 920 to Core i7 3770K. Also build a 4770K for a friend.

Nehalem to Sandy Bridge ~ 10% IPC improvement. Also in average the CPU would OC ~ 10-20% more. ~ 600Mhz.

Sandy Bridge to Ivy Bridge ~ 5% IPC improvement. You get more like 5-10% if you consider Ivy Bridge better memory controller. Ivy in general OC ~ 100-200MHz less.

Ivy Bridge to Haswell ~ 5% IPC improvement. Haswell aka 4770K would OC 100-200MHz less then Ivy Bridge. 4790K OCs about same as IVY.

So from Nehalem to Haswell its ~ 20% IPC improvement and ~ 600MHz higher OC ~ 35% better performance. Its not really that much considering

Sandy Bridge to Haswell ~ 10-15% IPC improvement but lower OC resulting ~ 10% improvement.

Yeah Haswell has other improvments and the MB have become a lot better and memory is a lot faster but pure CPU power excluding AVX has not changed much in past 3 years.
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post #75 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by geoxile View Post

K12, the custom ARM chips is going to have "a bigger engine" than Zen.
Through a more wide decode not more execution units. The decoders will be smaller and more efficient. We don't know by how much, it could just be Jim Keller hyping AArch64. Most expect K12 to perform less than Zen but more efficiently.
Quote:
Originally Posted by geoxile View Post

K12 is aimed primarily at low-power applications like ultra-low power client (probably thin client), dense server, and embedded. And AMD's plan is to devote 50% of their business to those and other high-growth markets (almost all of which are low-power, like mobile devices).
K12/Zen is aimed primarily at High Performance Computing. The AVFS scaling will allow it to intrude mobile laptop markets, etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by geoxile View Post

Zen is probably going to replace both the small-cat and big-construction cores, which means covering <5W to 45W(?) or lower TDPs across mobile and desktop. Based on what we know it's safe to say Zen probably won't be some kind of monolithic super core intended to fight Intel at the high-end. It's intended to cover low to mid range products. Unless XV really delivers on a magical improvement of at least 30% over Steamroller - not dubious "up to x%" improvements - Zen probably won't be coming anywhere near Skylake performance.
Zen/K12 are not replacing Sub-watt to 10-watt architectures. They are replacing Bulldozer and introducing AArch64.

Zen/K12 will most likely have a homogenous microarchitecture with a differential ISA.
Edited by Seronx - 10/19/14 at 1:05pm
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post #76 of 114
So 4 years total before a real replacement to the FX-8350? Its no wonder that their CPU division continues to shrink in size. Those of you thinking that AMD will compete with Intel haven't payed much attention to AMDs financial reports and growth projections...









Edited by Slomo4shO - 10/19/14 at 1:33pm
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post #77 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZealotKi11er View Post

I have had all CPUs since Core i7 920 to Core i7 3770K. Also build a 4770K for a friend.

Nehalem to Sandy Bridge ~ 10% IPC improvement. Also in average the CPU would OC ~ 10-20% more. ~ 600Mhz.

Sandy Bridge to Ivy Bridge ~ 5% IPC improvement. You get more like 5-10% if you consider Ivy Bridge better memory controller. Ivy in general OC ~ 100-200MHz less.

Ivy Bridge to Haswell ~ 5% IPC improvement. Haswell aka 4770K would OC 100-200MHz less then Ivy Bridge. 4790K OCs about same as IVY.

So from Nehalem to Haswell its ~ 20% IPC improvement and ~ 600MHz higher OC ~ 35% better performance. Its not really that much considering

Sandy Bridge to Haswell ~ 10-15% IPC improvement but lower OC resulting ~ 10% improvement.

Yeah Haswell has other improvments and the MB have become a lot better and memory is a lot faster but pure CPU power excluding AVX has not changed much in past 3 years.

Just out of curiosity would you say 4ghz haswell = 4.2ghz ivy = 4.5ghz sandy (roughly)?
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post #78 of 114
man... I have FX 6300 and i7 3770 3.7Ghz ... For BF4 i really dont see a difference between them... i mean FX 6300 4.5Ghz 2x 4GB 2050 Mhz ram is faster than i7 3770 3.7Ghz 1x 8Gb 1600 mhz ram in BF4 Shanghai siege with DX11 "not a lot faster but just a little".

Using R9 270X (AMD) so with DX11 (nvidia) could be different but with AMD DX11 i7 = i5... but this is BF4... BF3 = much different results (i7) wins by a lot

If you just compare AMD vs INTEL all i can say that INTEL is much better because INTEL +22nm+ better sockets+ better memory controller + better IPC + less powerconsumption,.., But soon you realize that AMD is actually not far behind ... i think that every INTEL user should support AMD aswell, because if we remember pentium 4 and all other INTEL fails.


Of course AMD bulldozers is fail!
1. Many games supports dual/quad cores -
2. AMD failed!

Bulldozer 2011 - Piledriver 2012 - Steamroller 2014 (only APUs) .... yep big fail

The problem with bulldozer was
- Bad IPC
- Bad FPU performance
- Bad memory controller
- Huge power consumption

Problems with piledriver
- Bad IPC
- Bad FPU performance
- Bad memory controller
- Huge power consumption

+higher clock and MT
? better memory controller
? better FPU

Problems with steamroller
- Bad IPC
- Bad FPU performance
- Bad memory controller

+ better MT
+ Power consumption improvement

Man? AMD had 3 years to improve their memory controller, FPU, IPC ???????!!! Yeah thats why i call bulldozer a big fail for AMD!


And what did intel
every year FPU/MT/IPC/power consumption improvement! This is where we get 50-70% better CPU!
post #79 of 114
Bulldozer had higher;
Integer IPC and Memory IPC, while lower Floating Point IPC.

Piledriver had increased and added;
New instructions
Increased queues/buffers sizes
etc.

Steamroller had increased and added;
Parallelism via two decodes and 32B instruction fetchs versus 16B instruction fetchs.
Increased queues/buffers sizes
etc.

Excavator, if you take above;
256-bit Loads/Stores + More misalignment optimization with the write combining buffer.
256-bit Floating Point ops
etc.
Edited by Seronx - 10/19/14 at 2:35pm
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post #80 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seronx View Post

Bulldozer had higher;
Integer IPC and Memory IPC, while lower Floating Point IPC.

Piledriver had increased and added;
New instructions
Increased queues/buffers sizes
etc.

Steamroller had increased and added;
Parallelism via two decodes and 32B instruction fetchs versus 16B instruction fetchs.
Increased queues/buffers sizes
etc.

Excavator, if you take above;
256-bit Loads/Stores + More misalignment optimization with the write combining buffer.
256-bit Floating Point ops
etc.


excavator should be out already... there will be no excavator for desktop APUs.. only for low power and OEMS
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