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big WC setup good for cooling peltier?

post #1 of 15
Thread Starter 
big WC setup good for cooling peltier? could such setup be used 24/7? would it be more practical than a phase cooler? how cold can peltier get a cpu for a 24/7 setup?
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post #2 of 15
Pelteir cooler's had a short run a while back. Oddly enough they meshed better with air coolers than liquid.

The most successful example of this would be the Cooler Master V10 http://www.coolermaster.com/cooling/cpu-air-cooler/v10/

the amount of cold is directly proportional to the amount of voltage AND heat...

Ultimately proved to be inefficient though...thumb.gif
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post #3 of 15
actually if you already have a large custom water cooling setup a great way to eek out more performance is to try building a TEC chiller setup. i wouldn't bother runnings tecs with air coolers, they only really shine when you can keep their hotside as cool as possible and watercooling is the best way to do this, aside from the expense, so if you have a large water cooling setup already, go for it, if not then i hope you have deep pockets tongue.gif

for an effective chiller use multiple tecs and run them at about 1/3rd to half their rated volts and watercool the hotside and you have yourself a decent little chiller that can deliver you in the range of 10 to 40 degrees celsius below your water temperature.

you have to pick wisely, choose a tec that can run at 12v in the 1/3 to 1/2 voltage range of its Vmax so you can run it off your computer power supply and pick a number of tecs that provides you with enough Qc to handle the heatload of your components. browse through this to find something that suits http://www.customthermoelectric.com/tecs_imax.html.

your main costs will be the tecs, the waterblocks for hot and cold side, whether they be custom or using old cpu blocks, but using old cpu blocks limits you to smaller sized tecs say 40x40mm rather than the 62x62mm tecs. you will need an extra pump for your cold side loop and finally a controller so that you can run it at 12v but still avoid condensation and keep your power usage down while your cpu or gpu is idling.

read through the tec forums to find out more about chillers, controllers, choosing tecs, figuring out your heatload etc. there are a bunch of great tec chiller builds on here to learn from, try puck or foxrena for some recent examples.
Edited by LiamG6 - 10/18/14 at 4:05pm
post #4 of 15
Thread Starter 
what are the differences between, peltier, tec, chiller and phase? i know phase is basically an A/C unit with a copper head. I want the one that is cold on one side but, require major power and puts out lots of heat on the other side ....or maybe phase.


EDIT: so i will i have look through. this forum has no stickies though.
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post #5 of 15
A peltier element, or a TEC, ie ThermoElectric Cooler are one and the same. A TEC works due to the peltier effect, named after the guy who discovered it, google it to find out more.

Phase works with refrigerants and compressors and evaporators etc, I don't know much about that at all but basically it's the same as what cools your fridge/freezer or AC.

A chiller can be created either by a TEC or a Phase change system, all a chiller is is creating a medium to transfer the heat away from the CPU without directly cooling it. So in the case of a tec chiller you would have a cold loop consisting of a cpu water block, a reservoir, a pump and then a series of water blocks attached to the cold side of the tecs. The hot side of the TEC's can either be watercooled or air cooled, water cooling is more efficient and is the same as a normal water cooling loop but instead of cooling the cpu with a waterblock you are cooling multiple tecs with water blocks This allows you to expand the contact area that your heat can be transferred through and is generally a great way to increase the heatload you can handle.

Conversely you can just place a single tec, or even 2 or 4 smaller tecs directly onto a coldplate on your cpu and then place a waterblock on top of that to cool the tecs, this is referred to as direct die or just a tec water block, the issues with this are the heatload it can handle and even the heat density being too high for water to effectively transfer it away when things really ramp up heat/voltage wise. with a tec chiller you maximize surface area by using say 8 tecs, this keeps the heat density low as each tec can be run at a lower voltage and doesn't have to transfer as high a share of the cpu's heat as if it would with just 4 tecs. some issues with tec chillers are keeping control of condenstation, you now have to insulate basically the whole cold side loop and cpu socket and motherboard if you go under ambient/dew point. where as with a direct die block you only have to insulate your block and motherboard as your water loop is above ambient temp. really its not a big deal, if you take time you can make your insulation on your motherboard and cpu block and the loop look pretty cool as evidenced by foxrena and puck.

You can also do a chiller with a phase change unit whether it be the ghetto mod of hacking up an ac unit and dropping the evaporator in a cooler and filling it with water and pumping this through your cpu waterblock or the more technical setup of building a custom phase change unit with a heat exchanger. phase is both more efficient and more effective in most cases but there can be cost or skill based barriers involved. hacking up a portable ac and using a cooler can be done by almost any reasonably handy person and can be quite cheap but its pretty ugly and noisy. you can also do a Single Stage or Cascade Phase setup which pumps refrigerant directly through an evaporator block directly on your cpu, generally the domain of overclockers and bench testers although I have seen some people run this 24/7.

I prefer TEC because of the hobby aspect without the need for much technical experience or specialized tools, its something you can really plan and learn as you go whereas phase will require guidance or experience in most cases. with TEC there is also the option to keep things silent with a large watercooling setup and low speed fans, something most phase setups don't allow. TEC usually doesn't cool as well as phase, can be just as costly as phase and generally uses more power if you try to achieve a really high delta between your hot and cold side temps. they can be made to be extremely efficient, quiet and cheap if you're not really chasing freezing temperatures, say if you want to have your water chiller at 5*c below ambient air temp you can do this relatively easily and cheaply and not use much power. the more you want from tecs the more costly it becomes and the less reasonable it is, at this point it makes more sense to go to phase.
post #6 of 15
this is a great example of a direct die tec water block by foxrena http://www.overclock.net/t/1412982/build-log-new-dual-50mm-tec-block/0_50

and this is an example of combing a tec chiller and a direct die tec waterblock by puck http://www.overclock.net/t/1473171/triple-tecs-double-chiller-direct-die-cascade-sure-why-not/0_50

this http://www.thermonamic.com/TEHC1-12714S-English.pdf and this http://www.customthermoelectric.com/tecs/pdf/28711-5L31-06CY_spec_sht.pdf are two great TEC's to start off with for a TEC chiller setup, the first one is good for 12v operation the second one is better if you push it a bit higher 15-21v.
Edited by LiamG6 - 10/18/14 at 6:38pm
post #7 of 15
A lot has changed since the old tiny 80w TEC days.

What really killed off TEC popularity was that CPU wattage and heat was increasing by a LOT every generation, but the TEC advancements lagged behind. We had DUAL CORE cpu's that were over 100w at stock clocks before any OC, compared to our quad core 75w parts we have currently. Now that things started going the other way - lower power draw CPUs and higher wattage TEC availability - they are becoming feasible again.
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post #8 of 15
Thread Starter 
what i used a triple 120mm/140mm radiator with a single 120 and ran them together, could that handle a direct to die heat load?

WOW, not as good as i thought, the direct to die you linked still hit 60c under load. i always liked the idea of Phase but, most or all i have seen have warm up time if you shut it down.


EDIT: i guess he did get 4.8 ghz though!!! not bad at all!!! can't Phase go higher like 5-6 ghz?
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post #9 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by cdoublejj View Post

what i used a triple 120mm/140mm radiator with a single 120 and ran them together, could that handle a direct to die heat load?

WOW, not as good as i thought, the direct to die you linked still hit 60c under load. i always liked the idea of Phase but, most or all i have seen have warm up time if you shut it down.


EDIT: i guess he did get 4.8 ghz though!!! not bad at all!!! can't Phase go higher like 5-6 ghz?

Read it a bit more carefully. The 60c load temp was with the TECs undervolted way down to only 7v. At 12v the 3 of the cores were 41-43c and one hit 49...MUCH colder then a WC loop with a 4770k @ 4.8ghz. Mid range loop will probably hit 80c at those settings.

My cascade TEC setup can keep a 4.7ghz proc at ~38c, but I am using 3 TECs @ ~150w each(one direct die, two as chillers) so I have a TON of wasted power and heat in my setup. If I turn everything up to max I am basically using around 500watts total to cool a ~150w heat source. Thanks to smart controllers though, for normal use browsing the web and stuff the block is barely idling at ~3%, and the chillers use ~20-25% to keep the coolant at 20c. Dual GTX Gen2 480 rads with 80cfm fans as push still can't keep the hotside within 10c of ambient. Have the extra fans to add pull to them, but have not had the time to install them. It will help, since I run filters that kill the flow across the rads.

As for your question, I ran a single direct die block with a triple and double rad (both push) in series and it was fine for my old 775 rig but when I went to an i7 it was just barely enough for 4.5ghz. Loop temps were getting crazy. You should really be looking at two triples in push(or a triple+double in push/pull) for a TEC setup since they are so reliant on keeping the hot side cool. It's not like normal water cooling where you can under rad and just be a couple degrees warmer. With a TEC, if you can't keep the hot side cool then the cold side starts to warm up as well until it stalls and then you're really in trouble.
Edited by Puck - 10/19/14 at 9:40pm
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post #10 of 15
delete me.
Edited by Puck - 10/19/14 at 9:40pm
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