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*rant* Ya know I'm tired of stuff breaking - Page 5

post #41 of 53
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So after two re-installs yesterday with a couple kernels I gave up no love with any DM nor startx. Today I came home re-installed again with nouveau and it works I guess the binaries that were good last week are no longer good..so it goes
 
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post #42 of 53
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plan9 View Post

It was quite clearly a problem with your graphics card drivers and Xorg - so of course your desktop would behave differently from your laptop.

Just out of interest, did you actually look at the logs?
Weirdly I find Windows requires far more patience:
  • Windows updates take a lifetime to run compared with Linuxes updates. And that's excluding the time wasted with multiple reboots in between; and the complete lack of versioning in Windows to begin with (why can't Windows just pull the latest binaries instead of making me install each and every sodding version between the currently installed and latest?!!). The ironic thing is, Windows updates aren't even less prone to braking than Linux updates are - which was the central basis for your point to begin with.
  • Everything is so bloody hard to find in Windows. Whether it's the horrid mess of a GUI hiding features in non-guessable stack of hidden windows, or the completely unparsable registry configs, or even just the directory hierarchy - you need to know where every last sodding thing is installed because you wont find the damn thing again if you forget. Linux doesn't require half as much mental mapping to use - if you lose something then just type use a superfast finder. Or if you're an uber nerd, type "whereis" or "which" in the command line.
  • And even with Microsoft's attempts at bringing power user features to Windows have been needlessly longwinded. Powershell and any command line applications are so pointlessly verbose - writing a simple shell script feels like your typing out War and Peace
  • Trying to find errors in Event viewer is like trying to get my 6 month old son to change his nappy without eating his own poo. I mean seriously Mircosoft, you've created a central database for all errors to be logged to (good idea) then created a GUI to manage it that's so impossible to quickly traverse that pretty much everyone just gives up and blindly reformats Windows instead.
  • And since we're talking about patience, the performance of Windows really does need mentioning. Linux runs circles around Windows; even before you've installed the necessary three thousand independent application updaters that run on start up, and your real time AV, just to keep your PC secure.

Windows is one of the most inflexible modern OS's these days - more so than OS X even (and that's saying something when Apple overtakes you in that department). And what's doubly annoying is that Windows isn't even cutting edge - it is by far the most backwards and out dated platform still in common use. So I'm constantly having to work around Windows' shortcomings and constantly having practice the patience of a saint while navigating the convoluted, backwards and, frankly, idiotic BS hoops that Windows constantly exercises.

It's an abomination. It's always been an abomination and it's getting even more ridiculous with each moronically named sequel. Windows was never any good when you compared it to the competition (baring Windows 2000, but aside BeOS (which few people knew that existed) there wasn't really any competition left by that point). However it doesn't matter how tragic your software is, if you manage to get it bundled on every new build then people will be forced to learn it's quirks before realising there's better stuff out there. It's like being married to a fat ugly pig with swine flu and never opening your curtains to realise you have hot Swedish twins living next door who are trained masseuses and part time underwear models. But I guess some people like bacon more than boobies. *shrugs*

I should probably stop responding to you since I inevitably lose even when I'm right (tm). But I'll reply anyway. Not because your complaints are invalid, because some of the things mentioned don't seem quite accurate or may be approached the wrong way.
Quote:
Windows updates take a lifetime to run compared with Linuxes updates. And that's excluding the time wasted with multiple reboots in between; and the complete lack of versioning in Windows to begin with (why can't Windows just pull the latest binaries instead of making me install each and every sodding version between the currently installed and latest?!!). The ironic thing is, Windows updates aren't even less prone to braking than Linux updates are - which was the central basis for your point to begin with.

I agree windows updates take a long time to run, no arguments. But that's only on a freshly installed system or a system that had updates turned off from some reason. In a production environment there imaging, WSUS and slipstreaming of install ISOs to copy with this. As power user at home at the very least there's slipsteaming. Sure it may take a while to setup initially but after that there's no reason to run for instance a fresh Win 7 SP1 machine with zero updates. Same goes for MS office (slip stream SPs/updates). There are few utilities from MS and other sources to assist with it but a CMD shell w/for-loop is just just as effective. Also, if I installed ubuntu server 12.04.1 from scratch right now I'd be waiting a while and reboot multiple times as well...

For the question on versioning between updates MS does release "roll ups" ever so often but outside of that I can only speculate: some production/legacy applications are really sensitive to their version of ".NET runtime 3.5 sp1" and modification of that will make it break/freak out/conflict with something else. So since some networks are poorly managed in hospitals/banks/government organizations/etc MS has to be very careful about what they roll up into what. And these are big clients running software that costs hundreds of thousands of dollars (probably programmed by the lowest bidder) so MS can't just ignore them. Not really the fault of MS either, just a responsibility imposed them by high-priority vendors. Again, just trying to find some reason in the irrational.
Quote:
Everything is so bloody hard to find in Windows. Whether it's the horrid mess of a GUI hiding features in non-guessable stack of hidden windows, or the completely unparsable registry configs, or even just the directory hierarchy - you need to know where every last sodding thing is installed because you wont find the damn thing again if you forget. Linux doesn't require half as much mental mapping to use - if you lose something then just type use a superfast finder. Or if you're an uber nerd, type "whereis" or "which" in the command line.

I'm only going to half disagree with this. I knew XP extremely well but put me in front of windows 8's explorer or Word 2010 and it's like I'm learning from scratch again, circa 1994. I think just in linux once you memorize where everything it becomes second nature. And I feel the same way in any window manager as you do in windows by the way. Nothing is where I think it should be and nothing works the way I think it will. On the searching part I use either the search box in the upper right hand corner for some stuff and the command line for other stuff. I usually find dir appwiz.* /s much faster/more convenient than the windows search thing myself. For registry thing I don't think the registry is supposed to be literally parsable. It can be queried on the command line (with reg) and then manipulated or have other things happen based on the result of said query.
Quote:
And even with Microsoft's attempts at bringing power user features to Windows have been needlessly longwinded. Powershell and any command line applications are so pointlessly verbose - writing a simple shell script feels like your typing out War and Peace

I've seen complaints of verbosity in Powershell on slashdot as well. I think this just a difference of philosophy. For instance Windows doesn't have nearly the emphasis on regular expressions that the Unix-likes do (reg expressions are in windows, just have to know where to look/how to use it) so the super-hip one liners aren't going to be as common. I believe in the windows admin world copy/pasting is a lot more common than from-scratch shell scripts. I have a windows network admin friend I can ask about that (he's quite the powershell enthusiast). Actually for that matter despite the baked shell scripts of the CMD shell, powershell and WSH with VBScript/JScript a lot of IT departments use things like AutoIT anyway. Which I never really saw the point of but it seems to be common.
Quote:
Trying to find errors in Event viewer is like trying to get my 6 month old son to change his nappy without eating his own poo. I mean seriously Mircosoft, you've created a central database for all errors to be logged to (good idea) then created a GUI to manage it that's so impossible to quickly traverse that pretty much everyone just gives up and blindly reformats Windows instead.

Probably don't know enough to have an opinion on this one. Seems like I've had to view the event viewer relatively rarely myself but when I have I have at least found the instance of the BSOD or whatever else that included enough of an error I found some clues through google. Perhaps not the log sorting/filing/tagging/databasing (is that word?) that you're accustomed to in Linux but I'm not sure that event viewer changed very much since windows 2000 anyway so this might be one of those cases where a third party utility would take care of that if it were really a priority.
Quote:
And since we're talking about patience, the performance of Windows really does need mentioning. Linux runs circles around Windows; even before you've installed the necessary three thousand independent application updaters that run on start up, and your real time AV, just to keep your PC secure.

Not sure what this is referring to exactly. This may be true on an XP machine from 2007 or so but my Windows 7 install is 2+ years old and running great. For that matter my work Windows 7 machine...I'm still surprised sometimes by how fast it loads. Properly managed Windows will and can run remarkably fast. For that matter I'm currently running Windows 10 Tech Preview on a CPU/motherboard/GPU from 2010 (with old mechanical HDD) and it's ridiculously fast booting and fast loading. Once I put my custom hosts file in place it will be even faster. In fact I also installed 10 on an old laptop for 2007 or so (resolution is 1024x768). That it runs at all is impressive to me never mind as well as it does.
Quote:
Windows is one of the most inflexible modern OS's these days - more so than OS X even (and that's saying something when Apple overtakes you in that department). And what's doubly annoying is that Windows isn't even cutting edge - it is by far the most backwards and out dated platform still in common use. So I'm constantly having to work around Windows' shortcomings and constantly having practice the patience of a saint while navigating the convoluted, backwards and, frankly, idiotic BS hoops that Windows constantly exercises.

I'm not sure what your definition of flexible here is (or which version you're referring to). I've actually found it to be remarkably flexible over the past 15 years so (98 was flexible too but I didn't dissect it quite as much). Much like linux if you put enough time into it adjust to your whims and peel off all the consumer-friendly candy wrappers you can make it do about anything. Couldn't comment on the backwardsness as I haven't used other OSes enough I may not know forwardness when I saw it. But again I could complain about hoops in my attempts at learning linux. As for OS X I don't know how flexible it is any more so I'll take your word for it. Somehow I don't think Yosemite would run on a Mac from 2007 though. Just a guess.


The only point I'm trying to make, in a really long-winded convoluted way perhaps, is that try use windows the way you use linux isn't going to go well and trying to use linux like it's windows won't go well either. Have to approach and utilize each by its strengths.


Actually I have a rant of my own about Linux: so I start learning ubuntu server because there's much back history of forum posts and documentation (and separate but compatible documentation and forum posts from other debian derivatives) and I thought I was learning a lot. I would install the OS manually get the IP, use sudo to get the latest updates, then install all the utilities I like to use like webmin, vim, tmux etc. Well the first thing I would do is get the IP address with ifconfig.

Eventually this OCN linux section made me want to switch over to debian instead. Figured it was a more standardized distro to work from etc.

I install debian from scratch (no GUI) and since I like interacting my linux server from SSH do my standard first step of ifconfig but I get no such command. So I try the next thing I did in ubuntu, sudo ifconfig and again no such command. So now I don't have ifconfig OR sudo, the two things I used the most.

I spent hours and hours and hours over more than a week trying to figure what modification to make to which config file just so I could at the very least use sudo to get my IP address (I think there's a path statement and/or sym link that needs adjusting but that's about as far as I got). I did eventually figure out the at least su root works and I could get the IP that way but I was so sick of trying to make this very flexible OS do something so simple by that point I had just moved on to something else. Isn't staying logged in as root against some kind of unix philosophy or something? Shouldn't sudo be the preferred method of running things over staying logged in as root? What am I missing? The wasn't rhetorical, I really don't know what I'm missing.

See? You're rolling your eyes that I was perplexed by something so simple. I still have no idea how to get an IP address from Debian without su root by the way. Seems convoluted, backwards, unnecessarily complex and...frustrating. Why can't commands just work the way it did on the other one? In Windows no matter what privileges I have or what context I can use a quick ipconfig to get my IP. So all this was quite jarring. (I'm just emphasizing a way of thinking for demonstrative purposes, feel free to ignore).

I was going to use the debian mini-ISO and a script from the crunchbang forums to do whatever magic to make those (and other) commands work in debian (and modify said script to skip past the X install) but I haven't gotten around to it.

Only point is you just have to approach the other thing with an emphasis on learning the thing.
 
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post #43 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by subassy View Post

Eventually this OCN linux section made me want to switch over to debian instead. Figured it was a more standardized distro to work from etc.

I install debian from scratch (no GUI) and since I like interacting my linux server from SSH do my standard first step of ifconfig but I get no such command. So I try the next thing I did in ubuntu, sudo ifconfig and again no such command. So now I don't have ifconfig OR sudo, the two things I used the most.

I spent hours and hours and hours over more than a week trying to figure what modification to make to which config file just so I could at the very least use sudo to get my IP address (I think there's a path statement and/or sym link that needs adjusting but that's about as far as I got). I did eventually figure out the at least su root works and I could get the IP that way but I was so sick of trying to make this very flexible OS do something so simple by that point I had just moved on to something else. Isn't staying logged in as root against some kind of unix philosophy or something? Shouldn't sudo be the preferred method of running things over staying logged in as root? What am I missing? The wasn't rhetorical, I really don't know what I'm missing.

See? You're rolling your eyes that I was perplexed by something so simple. I still have no idea how to get an IP address from Debian without su root by the way. Seems convoluted, backwards, unnecessarily complex and...frustrating. Why can't commands just work the way it did on the other one? In Windows no matter what privileges I have or what context I can use a quick ipconfig to get my IP. So all this was quite jarring. (I'm just emphasizing a way of thinking for demonstrative purposes, feel free to ignore).

I was going to use the debian mini-ISO and a script from the crunchbang forums to do whatever magic to make those (and other) commands work in debian (and modify said script to skip past the X install) but I haven't gotten around to it.

Only point is you just have to approach the other thing with an emphasis on learning the thing.

1.) Add user to sudo group, log out and back in; https://wiki.debian.org/sudo
Quote:
To add the user foo to the sudo group:
Code:
# adduser foo sudo

After being added to a new group the user must log out and then log back in again for the new group to take effect. Groups are only assigned to users at login time. A most common source of confusion is that people add themselves to a new group but then do not log out and back in again and then have problems because the group is not assigned. You can check what groups you are in with the id or groups commands.

2.) ifconfig was deprecated some time ago and now you simply issue `ip addr`; https://www.archlinux.org/news/deprecation-of-net-tools/

Note: Arch wasn't the only one, Debian Ubuntu, Fedora and a bunch of others as well, it's just the easiest news source to dig up
Quote:
This April marked the ten year anniversary of the last net-tools release. We decided to look at this as an opportunity to deprecate net-tools and provide alternative, and better maintained, solutions for net-tools functionality. This has a few consequences, but most people should not notice.

net-tools will continue to be in the repositories, so scripts relying on it should still work.

rc.conf
A new syntax is introduced in rc.conf for configuring a simple network setup using iproute2 rather than net-tools. The old functionality is still preserved for those preferring to stay with that, but do not expect it to gain new features.

The new syntax is very simplistic and only supports one wired network device (configured statically or by dhcp) and we do not expect to add more features in the future. We want to encourage the use of more advanced network solutions, such as networkmanager or our own netcfg.

domainname (a.k.a. nisdomainname, a.k.a ypdomainname)
These binaries are now provided by yp-tools, rather than by net-tools. Furthermore, the domain name is no longer set by initscripts, rather it is dealt with entirely by the ypbind rc script.

Before this change the domain name was handled inconsistently, sometimes being read from /etc/conf.d/nisdomainname, and sometimes from /etc/defaultdomain. From now on, the domain name is only ever read from /etc/conf.d/nisdomainname.


Not so hard now, eh? tongue.gif
post #44 of 53

No.

Screw Linux. Windows FTW. FTW!!!!! FOREVA!!!!

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post #45 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by subassy View Post

I should probably stop responding to you since I inevitably lose even when I'm right (tm). But I'll reply anyway. Not because your complaints are invalid, because some of the things mentioned don't seem quite accurate or may be approached the wrong way.
To be fair, I'll be the first to admit that I was exaggerating to make a point smile.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by subassy View Post

if I installed ubuntu server 12.04.1 from scratch right now I'd be waiting a while and reboot multiple times as well...
You shouldn't do. Ubuntu installs in about 15 to 30mins, including pulling all the latest packages from the net. And only one reboot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by subassy View Post

For the question on versioning between updates MS does release "roll ups" ever so often but outside of that I can only speculate: some production/legacy applications are really sensitive to their version of ".NET runtime 3.5 sp1" and modification of that will make it break/freak out/conflict with something else. So since some networks are poorly managed in hospitals/banks/government organizations/etc MS has to be very careful about what they roll up into what. And these are big clients running software that costs hundreds of thousands of dollars (probably programmed by the lowest bidder) so MS can't just ignore them. Not really the fault of MS either, just a responsibility imposed them by high-priority vendors. Again, just trying to find some reason in the irrational.
This problem isn't limited to Windows. Linux runs on just as mission critical systems too. And Linux has a much bigger problem with dependencies than Windows. Yet Linux has managed to handle versioning with fewer problems (though this is probably born out necessity because of aforementioned issues dependency issues)
Quote:
Originally Posted by subassy View Post

I'm only going to half disagree with this. I knew XP extremely well but put me in front of windows 8's explorer or Word 2010 and it's like I'm learning from scratch again, circa 1994. I think just in linux once you memorize where everything it becomes second nature. And I feel the same way in any window manager as you do in windows by the way. Nothing is where I think it should be and nothing works the way I think it will. On the searching part I use either the search box in the upper right hand corner for some stuff and the command line for other stuff. I usually find dir appwiz.* /s much faster/more convenient than the windows search thing myself. For registry thing I don't think the registry is supposed to be literally parsable. It can be queried on the command line (with reg) and then manipulated or have other things happen based on the result of said query.
My point was that you don't need to memorise Linux. Linux handles application paths better (everything is symlinked into $PATH). And it has tools for finding the location of executables (which) or program resources (whereis).

And I'm aware that the windows registry isn't meant to be parsable, that was my complaint. You're limited to working with Microsoft tools and those tools, frankly, aren't very good. On the whole, it makes configuring things slower and their options less discoverable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by subassy View Post

I've seen complaints of verbosity in Powershell on slashdot as well. I think this just a difference of philosophy. For instance Windows doesn't have nearly the emphasis on regular expressions that the Unix-likes do (reg expressions are in windows, just have to know where to look/how to use it) so the super-hip one liners aren't going to be as common. I believe in the windows admin world copy/pasting is a lot more common than from-scratch shell scripts. I have a windows network admin friend I can ask about that (he's quite the powershell enthusiast). Actually for that matter despite the baked shell scripts of the CMD shell, powershell and WSH with VBScript/JScript a lot of IT departments use things like AutoIT anyway. Which I never really saw the point of but it seems to be common.
Regex has nothing to do with anything. It's not that heavily used in *nix aside a few interpreters (awk, sed, Perl) but it's really not used that common on the raw command line. The reason Linux has better one liners is just because it has a decent set of command line tools to pipe together (as was the original UNIX philosophy)

This is why I think Windows really lacks some decent command line tooling. People were crying out for it years ago, which was why Microsoft invented Powershell. The problem was that MS wanted to leverage their .NET technologies and their .NET languages (C#, VB.NET) aren't well suited for shell scripting and Powershell still uses the horrible cmd.exe terminal emulator which is just horrible (though it looks like Microsoft are finally addressing some of those issues with Windows 10 since cmd.exe now supports [ctrl]+[p] rolleyes.gif)

I will grant you that this is very much advanced user type stuff and advanced users are happy to install 3rd party tools (I do read a about Windows admins / developers running Python, node.js or Cygwin to compensate). So it's not really a great issue in the grand scheme of things - just an annoyance for me whenever I need to dip into Windows.
Quote:
Originally Posted by subassy View Post

I'm not sure what your definition of flexible here is (or which version you're referring to). I've actually found it to be remarkably flexible over the past 15 years so (98 was flexible too but I didn't dissect it quite as much). Much like linux if you put enough time into it adjust to your whims and peel off all the consumer-friendly candy wrappers you can make it do about anything. Couldn't comment on the backwardsness as I haven't used other OSes enough I may not know forwardness when I saw it. But again I could complain about hoops in my attempts at learning linux.
I used to think Windows was flexible too. I'd written custom shells, hacked system files to change the start button text and did all sorts of other funky, undocumented, stuff. But after Linux for a few years, I've found that anything I can imagine, there's been an easy way to do it. If I want to mount wikipedia pages so I can view the online encyclopaedia as a local file system? There's a FUSE pluggin for that. I want to build a digital picture frame from an old laptop (so you power it one and it goes straight into a picture slide show)? There's documentation for doing that in Linux. I want to customize the OS in any number of ways? It's all documented.

But going back to my first point about Wikipedia over FUSE - it winds me up rotten just how needlessly difficult it is to use other file systems in Windows. You basically just have NTFS and FAT32 (which should have died out 20 years ago). Then you have some spotty support for ext3. Linux, however, can represent stuff that isn't even a file system as a file system. There's even an IRC client that works as a file system (each channel is a folder and private messages are just files being appended to. So you can chat on IRC as if you were reading log files). I can mount other servers locally using SSH (who needs VPNs?), I can create RAM disks without the need for 3rd party tools, I can mount CD / DVD images (ISOs) without 3rd party tools (something only just supported by Windows), I can even completely sandbox applications in their own subdirectory without any 3rd party tools (chroot).

Having been a Windows hacker in a previous life and being a Linux hacker now, I've come to realise that Linux just offers so much more scope for flexibility than Windows.
Quote:
Originally Posted by subassy View Post

The only point I'm trying to make, in a really long-winded convoluted way perhaps, is that try use windows the way you use linux isn't going to go well and trying to use linux like it's windows won't go well either. Have to approach and utilize each by its strengths.
I appreciate you wouldn't have been aware of this, but back in the 90s and early 00s, I was a pretty heavy Windows developer. I'd written games in DirectX. I'd hacked around with core system APIs and found undocumented features like translucency effects. I'd written shells to completely replace explorer.exe (the taskbar, desktop, etc). I used to know Windows insideout. So I'm definitely not someone that is trying to use Windows like Linux.
Quote:
Originally Posted by subassy View Post

Actually I have a rant of my own about Linux: so I start learning ubuntu server because there's much back history of forum posts and documentation (and separate but compatible documentation and forum posts from other debian derivatives) and I thought I was learning a lot. I would install the OS manually get the IP, use sudo to get the latest updates, then install all the utilities I like to use like webmin, vim, tmux etc. Well the first thing I would do is get the IP address with ifconfig.

Eventually this OCN linux section made me want to switch over to debian instead. Figured it was a more standardized distro to work from etc.

I install debian from scratch (no GUI) and since I like interacting my linux server from SSH do my standard first step of ifconfig but I get no such command. So I try the next thing I did in ubuntu, sudo ifconfig and again no such command. So now I don't have ifconfig OR sudo, the two things I used the most.

I spent hours and hours and hours over more than a week trying to figure what modification to make to which config file just so I could at the very least use sudo to get my IP address (I think there's a path statement and/or sym link that needs adjusting but that's about as far as I got). I did eventually figure out the at least su root works and I could get the IP that way but I was so sick of trying to make this very flexible OS do something so simple by that point I had just moved on to something else. Isn't staying logged in as root against some kind of unix philosophy or something? Shouldn't sudo be the preferred method of running things over staying logged in as root? What am I missing? The wasn't rhetorical, I really don't know what I'm missing.

See? You're rolling your eyes that I was perplexed by something so simple. I still have no idea how to get an IP address from Debian without su root by the way. Seems convoluted, backwards, unnecessarily complex and...frustrating. Why can't commands just work the way it did on the other one? In Windows no matter what privileges I have or what context I can use a quick ipconfig to get my IP. So all this was quite jarring. (I'm just emphasizing a way of thinking for demonstrative purposes, feel free to ignore).
A few points. Firstly, you installed Debian minimal - and you're complaining that stuff is missing. Well that's the point of minimal. If you want everything thrown in, then don't install a minimal distro, install Ubuntu or SuSE or anything else instead. Secondly, you installed an enterprise distro and complained that it's secure when compared to a desktop distro. It's like complaining that Windows Server 2012 is different from Windows Home Basic.

I do get your frustration though. It doesn't seem obvious to the average person that the aforementioned caveats exist. eg in Windows, you know full well that Windows Server Enterprise Edition isn't practical for your Atom-based tablet - even without knowing much about Windows. But with Linux, it isn't always obvious which distros are best suited for which jobs unless you're already familiar with those distros. Hell, even people who are familiar don't always agree on their suitability so what chance do you have laugher.gif

I do love the fragmentation in Linux because it means there's something for everyone. But it's definitely a double edged sward.
post #46 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrak View Post

2.) ifconfig was deprecated some time ago and now you simply issue `ip addr`; https://www.archlinux.org/news/deprecation-of-net-tools/

Note: Arch wasn't the only one, Debian Ubuntu, Fedora and a bunch of others as well, it's just the easiest news source to dig up
Not so hard now, eh? tongue.gif

To be fair to subassy, Debian still ships ifconfig (as does SLES and a few other distros too).

His issue would have been that ifconfig was in his /usr/sbin which wouldn't have been in a regular users $PATH. (well, that was my take from this post anyway)
post #47 of 53
Quote:
A few points. Firstly, you installed Debian minimal - and you're complaining that stuff is missing. Well that's the point of minimal. If you want everything thrown in, then don't install a minimal distro, install Ubuntu or SuSE or anything else instead. Secondly, you installed an enterprise distro and complained that it's secure when compared to a desktop distro. It's like complaining that Windows Server 2012 is different from Windows Home Basic.

I do get your frustration though. It doesn't seem obvious to the average person that the aforementioned caveats exist. eg in Windows, you know full well that Windows Server Enterprise Edition isn't practical for your Atom-based tablet - even without knowing much about Windows. But with Linux, it isn't always obvious which distros are best suited for which jobs unless you're already familiar with those distros. Hell, even people who are familiar don't always agree on their suitability so what chance do you have laugher.gif

I do love the fragmentation in Linux because it means there's something for everyone. But it's definitely a double edged sward.

I appreciate you're giving me the benefit of the doubt on some of this stuff.

I don't think I explained very clearly about the minimal thing. I wasn't using a minimal debian install but a regular debian ISO (it was the disk 1 ISO, 700+ megs, I forget the size now and don't have access to it at the moment) and opted out of X. As far as I know it should have otherwise been the full debian so I was expecting at least as much functionality as I got from debian server. Maybe that was the incorrect expectation.

I don't know if by "minimal install" you meant "choosing minimal options during normal install" or you meant "you were installing the ~50 meg mini-ISO" but for further clarification:
I was mentioning in passing that on the crunchbang forums is a script that will convert a debian minimal install (mini-ISO) to crunchbang. And since crunchbang had the few conveniences I'm accustomed to (sudo/ifconfig, I think others) I was going to go through the trouble of using that script, minus the install of X to make my semi-customized debian CLI-only box. The script was supposed be for people to do network boots of crunchbang since that project doesn't otherwise provide a method like a separate ISO for that sort of thing. I haven't actually done this, not sure if I will. I would take the opportunity to also learn automating installs since I was already there though.

Also, I thought having to login as root would actually be less secure than not. Wouldn't doing a sudo for a command at a time be more secure that having to switch to root? I'm not arguing, just asking. Or maybe that's not what you were talking about.

On the flexibility part I didn't know that's what you were referring to. Sure, you can use linux for picture frames, routers, remote control planes and a lot of other things. I wouldn't argue that actually. One of the benefits of free-as-in beer. Just as on the commercial side movie theater kiosks and ATMs seem to run windows (around here anyway, and XP at that, yikes). I was merely trying to point out you can customize it a lot. Some of the stuff that's been lost, like hacking whatever kernel file to change XP's boot image, was changed as a security thing since if you can do it manually root kits and malware can do it as well (but I'm not telling you anything new). I kind of miss my third party firewalls that got closed down with 64-bit. There are some things that are built in that not everybody knows about (you probably do). For instance you can create a VHD (virtual hard disk file) and mount it as a drive letter. That format/partition it to be bootable and boot Windows or any other OS with it. I don't think windows has a native compression utility (not a good anyway) but with something like 7zip you could even package things up. What few people actually use bitlocker are already well aware of most of this.

Now that I think about it for a picture frame I could by one of those $100 windows devices coming out and use the built-in windows screen saver to auto-rotate images in the "my pictures" library. Or I could full-screen powerpoint or something similar. I don't really have a need for that. Can't think of context I'd need to mount wikipedia in filesystem either. For that I'd create an offline mirror and use the onboard IIS web server the make it available again. Still can't think of reason why but that is how I would do it I think. For actual file system formats there's FAT32, the newer exFAT and MS seems to continually update NTFS version with each new version of windows but don't really make a big deal about it. There are some utilities for using ext2/ext3/ext4/etc in windows if one wanted it. I don't think that would work for C: drive though.

It's been kind of back of mind project to use something like Hyper-V core to create weird unix-windows hybrid monstrosity. Some third party bash thing with some shell or x-windows thing along with perhaps something of my creation for package management. And also directx support with steam running. Don't know if I'll ever get to it, but that would be fun. And time consuming. Would that fit any definition of flexible if I pulled that off?


This kind of unrelated but I wanted to propose an idea for future discussions and I don't know if it's worth a separate thread. I think we need a standard declaration of the term "stable/unstable". In some contexts (like windows commonly) it can mean doesn't randomly/ever crash and in other contexts (possibly debian/and the BSDs) it probably equates to something like not constantly changing. I think that's what "Debian stable" means, right? Debian stable means "the version updating and changing relatively rarely" as opposed to "the one that crashes very little". I mean it doesn't crash, the context isn't there to imply that. It's not just here on OCN, it's all over the internet when I see a discussion. The conversation goes on and neither side of the discussion seems to realize "stable" to a windows guy means "doesn't randomly go down" but means something different to a Debian guy, like "dependencies/libraries not constantly changing". And I see this conversations happening with neither side seemingly realizing they're arguing two subtly different things back and forth.

I'm probably not explaining this very well. I guess we need an easy one liner to explain our context equivalent to "free as in beer" like... "stable as in windows 98" (e.g. not very) or "stable like the crown" (e.g. changing relatively little). I don't know. Anybody have any idea what I'm talking about?
 
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post #48 of 53
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Originally Posted by Plan9 View Post

To be fair to subassy, Debian still ships ifconfig (as does SLES and a few other distros too).

His issue would have been that ifconfig was in his /usr/sbin which wouldn't have been in a regular users $PATH. (well, that was my take from this post anyway)

It didn't install last time I ran Debian a few months back tongue.gif

And that was even the full install with Gnome Shell and all, his minimal would of likely definitely not shipped it...
Quote:
Originally Posted by subassy View Post



This kind of unrelated but I wanted to propose an idea for future discussions and I don't know if it's worth a separate thread. I think we need a standard declaration of the term "stable/unstable". In some contexts (like windows commonly) it can mean doesn't randomly/ever crash and in other contexts (possibly debian/and the BSDs) it probably equates to something like not constantly changing. I think that's what "Debian stable" means, right? Debian stable means "the version updating and changing relatively rarely" as opposed to "the one that crashes very little". I mean it doesn't crash, the context isn't there to imply that. It's not just here on OCN, it's all over the internet when I see a discussion. The conversation goes on and neither side of the discussion seems to realize "stable" to a windows guy means "doesn't randomly go down" but means something different to a Debian guy, like "dependencies/libraries not constantly changing". And I see this conversations happening with neither side seemingly realizing they're arguing two subtly different things back and forth.

I'm probably not explaining this very well. I guess we need an easy one liner to explain our context equivalent to "free as in beer" like... "stable as in windows 98" (e.g. not very) or "stable like the crown" (e.g. changing relatively little). I don't know. Anybody have any idea what I'm talking about?

Stable can mean different things for different purposes.

Desktop stable != Server stable != Mission Critical stable

I wouldn't put much credence on the name the distribution gives it. Debian "stable" is just their oldest branch, "testing" being the next, "unstable" after that then "experimental" on the end. If you can see the pattern there, it's just in order of their testing. The "stable" basically just means it's been heavily tested at that point. With no updates other than security patches and bug fixes.

Granted, older doesn't necessarily mean more stable in every or really any sense.
Edited by Shrak - 10/23/14 at 4:39pm
post #49 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrak View Post


It didn't install last time I ran Debian a few months back tongue.gif

And that was even the full install with Gnome Shell and all, his minimal would of likely definitely not shipped it...
Stable can mean different things for different purposes.

Desktop stable != Server stable != Mission Critical stable

I wouldn't put much credence on the name the distribution gives it. Debian "stable" is just their oldest branch, "testing" being the next, "unstable" after that then "experimental" on the end. If you can see the pattern there, it's just in order of their testing. The "stable" basically just means it's been heavily tested at that point. With no updates other than security patches and bug fixes.

Granted, older doesn't necessarily mean more stable in every or really any sense.

 

In Debian, things have changed as they try to keep up with Ubuntu :). Use to take what a decade to get a new "stable" out of them : (yes i know i exaggerate a bit, but only a bit). I believe for "stable" its a two year cycle, testing is fairly up to date, "sid" is what you are thinking of, that is unstable branch, and mainly what ubuntu is pulled from, and then they do have a "experimental", its more of a holding pen than a release, it typically contains packages fresh from the upstream (typically little to no patching from debian packagers/developers).

 

I don't hate arch per se, I just never found it all that it is said to be. I do like the AUR a tad bit more the PPA's (and to respond to a poster earlier, if the PPA is setup correctly, you can grab the source and compile it for your own nefarious reasons or at the very least lots of them have the build files you need, but yes it is a problem imho that launchpad should stomp out).  Ubuntu does everything i need it too, and then some, but i'm quite interested with the whole leaving the mac ecosystem and going linux, as i'm about to jump ship into mac land...at any rate i'm getting that new retina mac! if i hate OSX, i'll just dump whatever distro is working that week with AMD :).

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post #50 of 53
I could sympathize with this about up until about 3 months ago now i have a nvidia card and have stopped needing to swap between catalyst and FOSS driver all the time. I have been running Mint 17 Cinnamon with only one issue for 3 months and its as solid as a rock with everything i need on it. I even have it looking exactly as i want it and have no desire to change. That one problem was my fault as i had added x-org-edgers PPA aswell as running ubuntu-drivers package so when i just mindlessly accepted the update ( mindlessly entered a password) the opensource driver was put on over the top of the closed source and ruined my x config.

Cinnamon is stable enough now on ubuntu/debian with mint i could probably run it for years without a hickup as long as I don't go overboard on installing everything all the time and pushing for the latest kernal updates. One important thing i do with mint though is turn off level 3 updates so only tested ones get through.

I agree with the poster who said there are a lot of bad distros, its true. But if you get to know the one your comfortable with then you start to work out what pitfalls to avoid and it makes the whole thing easier. So by swapping distros around I have settled on the one im most familiar with.
Edited by Pip Boy - 10/24/14 at 3:12am
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