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[Kit] Samsung does not expect computer memory prices to drop next year - Page 6

post #51 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Popple View Post

You seem to lay the same level of burden as in a court of law, this is an Internet discussion board. You also switch terms like "identify" and "prove" freely, and expect no one to raise a voice unless they have some unspecified thing that qualifies as this proof. Since my post was a response to Tsumi's demand for evidence of an explicit agreement, we have yet another idea of what is expected of those who dare criticize the ram manufacturers.
I thought the price trends have been implicitly acknowledged for months. For the other two you are expecting people to have the time and connections that are completely unwarranted for a news article, much less an internet thread on that article.

You can use evidence of secret meetings, phone calls, etc to provide evidence for collusion. Pricing alone is not good enough.
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post #52 of 74
Wait.. Did I miss the part that Samsung was getting back into the consumer ram market? Last I heard it was only business end ram.. So them ramping up supply means what to us then?
post #53 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Popple View Post

You seem to lay the same level of burden as in a court of law, this is an Internet discussion board. You also switch terms like "identify" and "prove" freely, and expect no one to raise a voice unless they have some unspecified thing that qualifies as this proof. Since my post was a response to Tsumi's demand for evidence of an explicit agreement, we have yet another idea of what is expected of those who dare criticize the ram manufacturers.
You can scream collusion all you want.... but how about someone going about proving it?

I haven't seen anyone track commodity prices or reach out to companies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Popple View Post

I thought the price trends have been implicitly acknowledged for months. For the other two you are expecting people to have the time and connections that are completely unwarranted for a news article, much less an internet thread on that article.
Price trends prove nothing implicitly or explicitly with collusion.

There are certain pricing behaviors that can seen with collusion. However, you need very good pricing data.... retail prices are meaningless. Those prices are like 3-6 levels removed from the RAM manufacturer already. (Yes, some companies like Micron/Crucial sell RAM to consumers but there are layers in-between fab to consumer.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JMattes View Post

Wait.. Did I miss the part that Samsung was getting back into the consumer ram market? Last I heard it was only business end ram.. So them ramping up supply means what to us then?
Samsung sells RAM to OEMs as well. These end up in consumer products.
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post #54 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckieHo View Post

You can scream collusion all you want.... but how about someone going about proving it?

I haven't seen anyone track commodity prices or reach out to companies.
Price trends prove nothing implicitly or explicitly with collusion.

There are certain pricing behaviors that can seen with collusion. However, you need very good pricing data.... retail prices are meaningless. Those prices are like 3-6 levels removed from the RAM manufacturer already. (Yes, some companies like Micron/Crucial sell RAM to consumers but there are layers in-between fab to consumer.)
Samsung sells RAM to OEMs as well. These end up in consumer products.

Proof requires money, if you want us to provide proof, be willing to pony up or just shut up and let people scream, they won't be doing any harm and you're not making the world a better place by annoying them, just proving yourself a troll.
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post #55 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zen00 View Post

Proof requires money, if you want us to provide proof, be willing to pony up or just shut up and let people scream, they won't be doing any harm and you're not making the world a better place by annoying them, just proving yourself a troll.

So asking for proof of wrongdoing by big companies = trolling. Okay then. Because obviously big companies will always do whatever it takes to screw the little guy over, and the little guy can never do wrong.
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post #56 of 74
Has no one considered:

Seller X raises price of RAM because of perceived brand value. Seller's A, B & C keep prices steady due to enough sales.

Seller X release earnings report stating increased sales and more profit. Seller's A, B & C then say "Oh Snap" it looks like the market can support higher pricing.

Seller X, A, B & C continue in an upward trend of increasing selling price until sales figures decline. B & C test the market with lower price offerings and find that increased sales don't offset the reduced margin and return to similar pricing as X & A.

That is perfectly normal method of market pricing that "soft locks" goods at a certain price. Is that what has happened with RAM? Maybe. It is also entirely possible that something stinky is going on, given the past history of the tech manufactures.

Those of us saying, "Hang on a sec, it might not be collusion", aren't saying that there is NO COLLUSION, just that there are perfectly legitimate economic reasons that may explain the current RAM market.
Let's take a breather before going off, all half-cocked and whatnot. That is all.
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post #57 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsumi View Post

So asking for proof of wrongdoing by big companies = trolling. Okay then. Because obviously big companies will always do whatever it takes to screw the little guy over, and the little guy can never do wrong.


No, it's asking for proof that can't be reasonably obtained that makes trolling.
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post #58 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zen00 View Post

No, it's asking for proof that can't be reasonably obtained that makes trolling.
So asking for evidence supporting claim is consider trolling?

Wouldn't it be more like "Making a claim without strong evidence be trolling"? It would be at least conjecture....


There are better ways to make a case for collusion though.....
Go get DRAMExchange commodity prices daily....
Go read quarterly earnings reports....
Go call up companies and see if anyone wants to talk...
Go read up on DRAM trade news....
Go get large datasets of retail prices spanning over a decade.... (would need to be very large and you would have to know how to tease out useful data)....

There are a bunch of things that could be done to make the case for collusion. Someone just needs to want to do it....
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post #59 of 74
If it's so easy, why don't you go get it. "I don't have the time!" you might say, well, I would say the same thing, in which case then stop trying to make something happen you know isn't going to happen.
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post #60 of 74
If you have the time to throw around baseless accusations, why don't you use that time instead to substantiate your claims? If you want to get something done, do it yourself. Don't expect others to do the work for you, especially since you're the one making the claims, not the other person.
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