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[Kit] Samsung does not expect computer memory prices to drop next year - Page 7

post #61 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zen00 View Post

If it's so easy, why don't you go get it. "I don't have the time!" you might say, well, I would say the same thing, in which case then stop trying to make something happen you know isn't going to happen.

Duckie has presented the necessary measures that one would need to take to prove collusion. Collusion is not a natural market phenomenon. That is, it does not normally occur in competitive markets. You saying that it does requires you to prove your claim or else be dismissed as a factless ideologue.

See also: Russel's Teapot
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post #62 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by coachmark2 View Post

Duckie has presented the necessary measures that one would need to take to prove collusion. Collusion is not a natural market phenomenon. That is, it does not normally occur in competitive markets. You saying that it does requires you to prove your claim or else be dismissed as a factless ideologue.

See also: Russel's Teapot

We have proof of previous activity by tech companies that have frequently been convicted of illegal actions along these lines, enough to ask for people to seriously consider the suspicion that it is happening again.

Also, the Teapot doesn't apply because we do have previous proof of such activity, combined with current activity that emulates previous activity that could eventually become proof if someone would spend the time/money to investigate, which probably won't happen.
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post #63 of 74
Here's some proof...


07SEP12



21OCT14
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post #64 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by PostalTwinkie View Post

Come the hell on.

One quick Google search totally shows your article you linked is full of it - which I didn't need Google to tell me, having formerly worked in auto sales.

http://www.snopes.com/photos/automobiles/unsoldcars.asp

Simply using a Google image drag search of the photos, supposedly taken in 2014, shows them being published in very specific articles YEARS ago.

EDIT:

As for RAM pricing collusion, yup, has been going on for awhile. Samsung is building a new factory, which might impact pricing in a few years, but that doesn't change the fact that they are all doing it now. RAM doesn't suddenly almost double in cost for no reason like it did.
Cool. No need to take it personal, I was wrong, happy? I actually don't really remember who pointed that out to me, it's been a while, so I don't particularly care either way, sorry for spreading false info.
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post #65 of 74
One data point does not a theory make
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post #66 of 74
If you want this to change, be sure to file a report with US anti-trust consumer agencies. The biggest slap in the face of all is the obvious "gloating" that price collusion is favoring manufacturers of DRAM by Samsung's CEO.
 
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post #67 of 74
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by coachmark2 View Post

Duckie has presented the necessary measures that one would need to take to prove collusion. Collusion is not a natural market phenomenon. That is, it does not normally occur in competitive markets. You saying that it does requires you to prove your claim or else be dismissed as a factless ideologue.
This is now becoming a circular crowd of mutual reinforcement. These measures you speak of are a random list of tasks that he cobbled up. They either don't even make sense or their fulfillment don't lead anywhere. All I see is pseudo expertise thrown around and then holding others to legal rigour.

Need I remind you Tsumi has a quite different challenge in mind of what counts as evidence.
Quote:
You can use evidence of secret meetings, phone calls,] etc to provide evidence for collusion. Pricing alone is not good enough.
No one is going to chase after everything you can think of on a whim.

Quote:
See also: Russel's Teapot
1. What Zen00 said.
2. Same thing I said about reasonable expectation of rigour. Expecting something like the Principia Mathematica to guide every arithmetic calculation we make is the very definition of unreasonableness.
post #68 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zen00 View Post

We have proof of previous activity by tech companies that have frequently been convicted of illegal actions along these lines, enough to ask for people to seriously consider the suspicion that it is happening again.
You make a claim so the responsibility is on you. Past actions is not proof of current crime. Prove the suspicion then.

Frankly... it doesn't matter what you or think now does it?

Do you know who would know? Companies like Dell, HP, IBM, Apple, Google... ODMs, OEMs, etc. They have enough data and resources... and I'm sure there's a whistleblower some where right?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Popple View Post

This is now becoming a circular crowd of mutual reinforcement. These measures you speak of are a random list of tasks that he cobbled up. They either don't even make sense or their fulfillment don't lead anywhere. All I see is pseudo expertise thrown around and then holding others to legal rigour.
EXACTLY!!!! People who don't understand economics, don't follow DRAM industry news, or couldn't plot a timeline of all the major DRAM pricing events for the last 10 years....

Man....really, these people.... They complain about people cobbling up methods that are utilized to identify collusion.... and they present their own... what? 4-6 data points of RETAIL pricing?

rolleyes.gif

Do you have a subscription to www.dramexchange.com? The entry level is a free.

Like I said, it's suspicious... but not unheard of.
Edited by DuckieHo - 10/21/14 at 6:03pm
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post #69 of 74
Thread Starter 
Quote:
You make a claim so the responsibility is on you. Past actions is not proof of current crime. Prove the suspicion then.
Again, raising the bar impossibly high for the means of internet tech journalism. A claim made in everyday conversation can not be expected to abide by the same standards that one made in the courtroom must. You are silencing free speech under the guise of libel.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckieHo View Post

EXACTLY!!!! People who don't understand economics, don't follow DRAM industry news, or couldn't plot a timeline of all the major DRAM pricing events for the last 10 years....

Man....really, these people.... They complain about people cobbling up methods that are utilized to identify collusion.... and they present their own... what? 4-6 data points of RETAIL pricing?

rolleyes.gif

Do you have a subscription to www.dramexchange.com? The entry level is a free.
You have not presented any method, but a list of menial tasks. Any authoritative method is beyond the scope of a forum discussion to even explain. You are expecting ordinary people and journalists to devote professional resources and expenditure before they can write a daily article on the internet containing speculation that you don't like to see.
post #70 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Popple View Post

Again, raising the bar impossibly high for the means of internet tech journalism. A claim made in everyday conversation can not be expected to abide by the same standards that one made in the courtroom must. You are silencing free speech under the guise of libel.
First off... It's not "impossibly high" to do the research. Do you read earnings reports? Do you watch commodity prices? Do you read DRAM industry news? All this information is public knowledge. (Personally, I use to keep up with industry news more but no time anymore.)

Second, you underestimate tech journalists, analyst, and academics as there those who specifically cover the DRAM industry. You will find these people are specialty and industry sites... not on consumer tech sites.

Here's some:
www.dramexchange.com
www.objective-analysis.com/Reports.html
www.gbiresearch.com/media-center/press-releases/too-much-of-a-good-thing-oversupply-of-dram-hurting-the-memory-ic-market
www.seekingalpha.com/article/2307375-micron-and-dram-cost
www.nber.org/chapters/c7802.pdf


So... in your world, saying "Prove it" is silencing free speech?




Quote:
Originally Posted by Popple View Post

You have not presented any method, but a list of menial tasks. Any authoritative method is beyond the scope of a forum discussion to even explain. You are expecting ordinary people and journalists to devote professional resources and expenditure before they can write a daily article on the internet containing speculation that you don't like to see.
How is data mining and analysis menial? If you can do it, there are plenty of high paying jobs for you.

If ordinary people and journalists are given information to contrary, shouldn't they be willing to research? If something is beyond their expertise, then shouldn't they ask... "Tell me more" rather than "It can't be true because I don't understand."

One would hope that IBM, Dell, Apple, Google, Asus, HP, Lenovo, etc would have some economists and risk/market analysts on payroll to do this type of work, right? I mean only their products depend on DRAM....
Edited by DuckieHo - 10/21/14 at 6:41pm
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