Overclock.net › Forums › Industry News › Software News › [ARS] Apple: Beginning February 2015, App Store submissions need to be 64-bit
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

[ARS] Apple: Beginning February 2015, App Store submissions need to be 64-bit - Page 5

post #41 of 81
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrak View Post

32 bit = less memory than 64 bit
64 bit = more memory than 32 bit
32 bit and 64 bit = more memory than a single of the two.

Ignoring the fact that both both 32 bit libs and 64 bit libs are loaded simultaneously as is, is like ignoring to put lemon in a lemon cake. Switching the whole system to purely 64 bit ( their goal ), will yield less memory usage overall.

Oh ok... I was comparing purely 32 | 64... did not account for 32 & 64.

Wait.... question on how objects are loaded into memory.... (I haven't worked on C or lower level languages in some time.)
This applications are binary blobs, right?
They use static libraries, not shared/linked libraries.
Do unused static libraries get loaded into memory?
Once again...
(13 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i7 920 [4.28GHz, HT] Asus P6T + Broadcom NetXtreme II VisionTek HD5850 [900/1200] + Galaxy GT240 2x4GB G.Skill Ripjaw X [1632 MHz] 
Hard DriveOSMonitorKeyboard
Intel X25-M 160GB + 3xRAID0 500GB 7200.12 Window 7 Pro 64 Acer H243H + Samsung 226BW XARMOR-U9BL  
PowerCaseMouseMouse Pad
Antec Truepower New 750W Li Lian PC-V2100 [10x120mm fans] Logitech G9 X-Trac Pro 
  hide details  
Reply
Once again...
(13 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i7 920 [4.28GHz, HT] Asus P6T + Broadcom NetXtreme II VisionTek HD5850 [900/1200] + Galaxy GT240 2x4GB G.Skill Ripjaw X [1632 MHz] 
Hard DriveOSMonitorKeyboard
Intel X25-M 160GB + 3xRAID0 500GB 7200.12 Window 7 Pro 64 Acer H243H + Samsung 226BW XARMOR-U9BL  
PowerCaseMouseMouse Pad
Antec Truepower New 750W Li Lian PC-V2100 [10x120mm fans] Logitech G9 X-Trac Pro 
  hide details  
Reply
post #42 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckieHo View Post

Oh ok... I was comparing purely 32 | 64... did not account for 32 & 64.

Wait.... question on how objects are loaded into memory.... (I haven't worked on C or lower level languages in some time.)
This applications are binary blobs, right?
They use static libraries, not shared/linked libraries.
Do unused static libraries get loaded into memory?

I too am a bit intrigued in how some of this logic works. But, they will still contain the 32 bit libraries anyways, or else they destroy all legacy applications. "Hopefully" after X years of them doing this, they will then build a 64bit only OS that no longer requires the 32bit logic. Even with that, you will run into some annoying instances where if you upgrade your OS to the full 64bit one, then potentially a handful of applications you enjoy will no longer be valid. I already run into the instance where my iPad cant upgrade certain applications untill I update the OS, but i cant update the OS because its a regular iPad. I guess the point i am trying to make with that is that i am a bit weary of them putting developers and or consumers in an awkward upgrade compatibility situation. Normally I respect large companies to know what the more appropriate thing to do is, but with Apple I never know. They dont listen to their consumers and make what they want to make. Sometimes its appropriate, sometimes not. As people mentioned above, dont trust developers, well maybe it forces Apple to be the bad guy.

All in all, its odd to start forcing 64 bit when they have 1 GB RAM on the phone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckieHo View Post

That doesn't make sense.... if you even get 5% from 64-bit, then it would be useful. It's free performance...

Depends on the integration. You are trading performance for development time, or even availability. If the app is simple, converting from 32 to 64 is negligible, but you now need to go trough the whole approval process again. Its a bit odd though because its easier to step 32 up to 64 than to go from 64 down to 32, so developing based on 64 would be more work...
Zev's Comp
(15 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel Core i5-2500K Sandy Bridge 3.3GHz GIGABYTE GA-Z68X-UD3H-B3 LGA 1155 Intel Z68 HDM... GeForce GTX 750 Ti G.SKILL Ripjaws X Series 8GB 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DrivePower
1TB HDD 64GB SSD (Used for SRT) 500 GB. Antec BP550 Plus 550W Continuous Power ATX12V V... 
Case
COOLER MASTER ELITE 335 RC-335-KKN1-GP Black S... 
  hide details  
Reply
Zev's Comp
(15 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel Core i5-2500K Sandy Bridge 3.3GHz GIGABYTE GA-Z68X-UD3H-B3 LGA 1155 Intel Z68 HDM... GeForce GTX 750 Ti G.SKILL Ripjaws X Series 8GB 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DrivePower
1TB HDD 64GB SSD (Used for SRT) 500 GB. Antec BP550 Plus 550W Continuous Power ATX12V V... 
Case
COOLER MASTER ELITE 335 RC-335-KKN1-GP Black S... 
  hide details  
Reply
post #43 of 81
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrzev View Post

Depends on the integration. You are trading performance for development time, or even availability. If the app is simple, converting from 32 to 64 is negligible, but you now need to go trough the whole approval process again. Its a bit odd though because its easier to step 32 up to 64 than to go from 64 down to 32, so developing based on 64 would be more work...
Shouldn't be too hard since the entire ecosystem is moving to 64-bit. Most 3rd party libraries will move with the ecosystem. Developers just have to recompile targeting 64-bit.
Once again...
(13 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i7 920 [4.28GHz, HT] Asus P6T + Broadcom NetXtreme II VisionTek HD5850 [900/1200] + Galaxy GT240 2x4GB G.Skill Ripjaw X [1632 MHz] 
Hard DriveOSMonitorKeyboard
Intel X25-M 160GB + 3xRAID0 500GB 7200.12 Window 7 Pro 64 Acer H243H + Samsung 226BW XARMOR-U9BL  
PowerCaseMouseMouse Pad
Antec Truepower New 750W Li Lian PC-V2100 [10x120mm fans] Logitech G9 X-Trac Pro 
  hide details  
Reply
Once again...
(13 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i7 920 [4.28GHz, HT] Asus P6T + Broadcom NetXtreme II VisionTek HD5850 [900/1200] + Galaxy GT240 2x4GB G.Skill Ripjaw X [1632 MHz] 
Hard DriveOSMonitorKeyboard
Intel X25-M 160GB + 3xRAID0 500GB 7200.12 Window 7 Pro 64 Acer H243H + Samsung 226BW XARMOR-U9BL  
PowerCaseMouseMouse Pad
Antec Truepower New 750W Li Lian PC-V2100 [10x120mm fans] Logitech G9 X-Trac Pro 
  hide details  
Reply
post #44 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrzev View Post


Depends on the integration. You are trading performance for development time, or even availability. If the app is simple, converting from 32 to 64 is negligible, but you now need to go trough the whole approval process again. Its a bit odd though because its easier to step 32 up to 64 than to go from 64 down to 32, so developing based on 64 would be more work...
exactly, having to have extra work all that for a mere 5%, it is just a waste of time.
Gaming Rig
(10 items)
 
Work/Web Rig
(11 items)
 
Web Rig
(8 items)
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i5-2500K @4GHz stock volt OC Asus P8Z77-V LK Palit GTX 750Ti StormX Dual Corsair Vengence 1600MHz_CL8 4GBx4 
Hard DriveHard DriveCoolingOS
Seagate 80GB 7200rpm Maxtor 250GB 7200rpm Cooler Master Hyper 212+ Windows 10 Pro 
MonitorCase
BenQ XL2720z @ 1920x1080 144Hz Silverstone Ps06 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Core 2 Quad Q9650 Gigabyte EP41-UD3L Asus 1GB Radeon 7790 DirectCU OC Corsair Gaming Ram 2GBx2 DDR2-800 
Hard DriveHard DriveCoolingOS
Samsung 80GB 7200rpm Western Digital 200GB 7200rpm Cooler Master Hyper TX3 Windows 7 pro 
MonitorPowerCase
Samsung 226bw 1680x1050 Acbel iPower 510w (450w PSU) LianLi PS05 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
AMD E350 MSI E350IA-E45 AMD Radeon 6310 4GB Kingston DDR3 1333 
Hard DriveOSMonitorPower
Western Digital 80GB Linux Slackware 14.1 Samsung 22" 1680x1050 LCD Acbel 300w PSU 
  hide details  
Reply
Gaming Rig
(10 items)
 
Work/Web Rig
(11 items)
 
Web Rig
(8 items)
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i5-2500K @4GHz stock volt OC Asus P8Z77-V LK Palit GTX 750Ti StormX Dual Corsair Vengence 1600MHz_CL8 4GBx4 
Hard DriveHard DriveCoolingOS
Seagate 80GB 7200rpm Maxtor 250GB 7200rpm Cooler Master Hyper 212+ Windows 10 Pro 
MonitorCase
BenQ XL2720z @ 1920x1080 144Hz Silverstone Ps06 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Core 2 Quad Q9650 Gigabyte EP41-UD3L Asus 1GB Radeon 7790 DirectCU OC Corsair Gaming Ram 2GBx2 DDR2-800 
Hard DriveHard DriveCoolingOS
Samsung 80GB 7200rpm Western Digital 200GB 7200rpm Cooler Master Hyper TX3 Windows 7 pro 
MonitorPowerCase
Samsung 226bw 1680x1050 Acbel iPower 510w (450w PSU) LianLi PS05 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
AMD E350 MSI E350IA-E45 AMD Radeon 6310 4GB Kingston DDR3 1333 
Hard DriveOSMonitorPower
Western Digital 80GB Linux Slackware 14.1 Samsung 22" 1680x1050 LCD Acbel 300w PSU 
  hide details  
Reply
post #45 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clocknut View Post

exactly, having to have extra work all that for a mere 5%, it is just a waste of time.
Who said it's 5%? I saw notable improvements in Geekbench 3 numbers from nothing more than a recompile to 64-bit, ranging from 5% up to around 20% IIRC. That's nothing to scoff, particularly WITHOUT any optimisations done to further improve performance.
Kasuf
(9 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Core i5 6600K ASRock Z170 Pro4 ASUS Radeon RX 480 ROG Strix Corsair Vengeance LPX 32GB 3000MHz 
Hard DriveCoolingMonitorPower
Samsung 850 EVO Noctua NH-D15 LG 34" Ultrawide (LG34UC98) Corsair HX750i 
Case
Silverstone FT05B-W 
  hide details  
Reply
Kasuf
(9 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Core i5 6600K ASRock Z170 Pro4 ASUS Radeon RX 480 ROG Strix Corsair Vengeance LPX 32GB 3000MHz 
Hard DriveCoolingMonitorPower
Samsung 850 EVO Noctua NH-D15 LG 34" Ultrawide (LG34UC98) Corsair HX750i 
Case
Silverstone FT05B-W 
  hide details  
Reply
post #46 of 81
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clocknut View Post

exactly, having to have extra work all that for a mere 5%, it is just a waste of time.

Recompile targeting 64-bit isn't that much work.... and they will have to do it anyways.

I doubt most smartphone applications have many 3rd party or middleware in general. Any that do probably already have 64-bit support.
Once again...
(13 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i7 920 [4.28GHz, HT] Asus P6T + Broadcom NetXtreme II VisionTek HD5850 [900/1200] + Galaxy GT240 2x4GB G.Skill Ripjaw X [1632 MHz] 
Hard DriveOSMonitorKeyboard
Intel X25-M 160GB + 3xRAID0 500GB 7200.12 Window 7 Pro 64 Acer H243H + Samsung 226BW XARMOR-U9BL  
PowerCaseMouseMouse Pad
Antec Truepower New 750W Li Lian PC-V2100 [10x120mm fans] Logitech G9 X-Trac Pro 
  hide details  
Reply
Once again...
(13 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i7 920 [4.28GHz, HT] Asus P6T + Broadcom NetXtreme II VisionTek HD5850 [900/1200] + Galaxy GT240 2x4GB G.Skill Ripjaw X [1632 MHz] 
Hard DriveOSMonitorKeyboard
Intel X25-M 160GB + 3xRAID0 500GB 7200.12 Window 7 Pro 64 Acer H243H + Samsung 226BW XARMOR-U9BL  
PowerCaseMouseMouse Pad
Antec Truepower New 750W Li Lian PC-V2100 [10x120mm fans] Logitech G9 X-Trac Pro 
  hide details  
Reply
post #47 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckieHo View Post

Recompile targeting 64-bit isn't that much work.... and they will have to do it anyways.

I doubt most smartphone applications have many 3rd party or middleware in general. Any that do probably already have 64-bit support.

It actually is. Simple applications typically wont be a problem, but when you get to larger applications, there is always something that gives you a headache. Same goes with stupid things like, we are building using Visual Studio 2012 , but when we upgrade to 2012 SP1 , it fails. You wont run into issues like an int being 32bits on one and 64bits on the other (i had that issue when going from a 16bit OS to a 32bit OS a few months ago), its stupid things like a 3rd party DLL that your using has an issue in this one function, or you flipped everything to 64 except for 1 little flag you forget to swap. Perhaps it was the installer that you forgot to flag this as a 64bit dll now. If you hard coded a setup file as Setup32.exe , now needs to be Setup64.exe and you need to make sure your test automation knows about all of these changes. Its been almost 2 years since I was the configuration manager at my last job, so I'm sure i missed a few scenarios. Overall, it sounds like its a simple flip of a switch.... but trust me, the majority of the time its a pain.
Quote:
Originally Posted by steelbom View Post

Who said it's 5%? I saw notable improvements in Geekbench 3 numbers from nothing more than a recompile to 64-bit, ranging from 5% up to around 20% IIRC. That's nothing to scoff, particularly WITHOUT any optimizations done to further improve performance.

You do realize that's not the same thing right? 64 bit should not be faster unless you are dealing with values larger than 32 bits . The vast majority of applications never need to do this, so you wont see any improvement. But, there are lots of resources out there that will say that 64bit applications will actually use a lot more memory than 32bit. -LINK-

So, that application could be multiplying HUGE values, yeah it would be faster, but if you open up a stopwatch, calculator, fantasy football application, yelp app, facebook app... nope wont help. Angrybirds , maybe... the 2 factor authentication thingy from blizzard or whoever... maybe... In any case... its really odd to go to 64bit when you are limiting your memory to 1gb for their new phone and their only device with say 2gb is their new tablet.
Zev's Comp
(15 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel Core i5-2500K Sandy Bridge 3.3GHz GIGABYTE GA-Z68X-UD3H-B3 LGA 1155 Intel Z68 HDM... GeForce GTX 750 Ti G.SKILL Ripjaws X Series 8GB 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DrivePower
1TB HDD 64GB SSD (Used for SRT) 500 GB. Antec BP550 Plus 550W Continuous Power ATX12V V... 
Case
COOLER MASTER ELITE 335 RC-335-KKN1-GP Black S... 
  hide details  
Reply
Zev's Comp
(15 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel Core i5-2500K Sandy Bridge 3.3GHz GIGABYTE GA-Z68X-UD3H-B3 LGA 1155 Intel Z68 HDM... GeForce GTX 750 Ti G.SKILL Ripjaws X Series 8GB 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DrivePower
1TB HDD 64GB SSD (Used for SRT) 500 GB. Antec BP550 Plus 550W Continuous Power ATX12V V... 
Case
COOLER MASTER ELITE 335 RC-335-KKN1-GP Black S... 
  hide details  
Reply
post #48 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrzev View Post

You do realize that's not the same thing right? 64 bit should not be faster unless you are dealing with values larger than 32 bits . The vast majority of applications never need to do this, so you wont see any improvement. But, there are lots of resources out there that will say that 64bit applications will actually use a lot more memory than 32bit. -LINK-

So, that application could be multiplying HUGE values, yeah it would be faster, but if you open up a stopwatch, calculator, fantasy football application, yelp app, facebook app... nope wont help. Angrybirds , maybe... the 2 factor authentication thingy from blizzard or whoever... maybe... In any case... its really odd to go to 64bit when you are limiting your memory to 1gb for their new phone and their only device with say 2gb is their new tablet.
You can read about it here: http://www.anandtech.com/show/7335/the-iphone-5s-review/4
Quote:
Unlike the 64-bit x86 transition, ARM’s move to 64-bit comes with a new ISA rather than an extension of the old one. The new instruction set is referred to as A64, while a largely backwards compatible 32-bit format is called A32. Both ISAs can be supported by a single microprocessor design, as ARMv8 features two architectural states: AArch32 and AArch64. Designs that implement both states can switch/interleave between the two states on exception boundaries. In other words, despite A64 being a new ISA you’ll still be able to run old code alongside it. As always, in order to support both you need an OS with support for A64.

The article talks more about the improvements that came with the new ISA.
Kasuf
(9 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Core i5 6600K ASRock Z170 Pro4 ASUS Radeon RX 480 ROG Strix Corsair Vengeance LPX 32GB 3000MHz 
Hard DriveCoolingMonitorPower
Samsung 850 EVO Noctua NH-D15 LG 34" Ultrawide (LG34UC98) Corsair HX750i 
Case
Silverstone FT05B-W 
  hide details  
Reply
Kasuf
(9 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Core i5 6600K ASRock Z170 Pro4 ASUS Radeon RX 480 ROG Strix Corsair Vengeance LPX 32GB 3000MHz 
Hard DriveCoolingMonitorPower
Samsung 850 EVO Noctua NH-D15 LG 34" Ultrawide (LG34UC98) Corsair HX750i 
Case
Silverstone FT05B-W 
  hide details  
Reply
post #49 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schoat333 View Post

That what I expected. I'm surprised Apple would alienate their old devices like that. Apple always touts their ability to update older devices, and makes fun of Android for "fragmentation". Seems like this may cause quite a problem for that ideology.

By the time they rolls this out, the non-64-bit iDevices will be almost half a decade old. A lot of people have upgraded their iPhones/iPads since Apple started using 64-bit.

For the minority that haven't upgraded, 32-bit versions will be available. Apple is just forcing developers to make 64-bit apps, but they can include 32-bit for people with the iPhone 4 or older and/or first iPad and/or 4th gen iPod Touch

As for them keeping older hardware up to date, my dads 3GS still gets iOS updates from Apple. Not major updates, just security ones.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tjj226 Angel View Post

I gotta say, apple has actually been making some smarter business moves as of late.

I hope they can keep the ball rolling.

The only smart business move I have seen since Tim took over was Retina MacBooks and the Retina iMac.
Quote:
Originally Posted by azanimefan View Post

this is about andriod. They're aiming to keep all the good apps away from andriod.

Basically andriod isn't close to supporting 64bit across the whole environment. this will make many apps apple exclusive. That's all this is about... this is also about forcing people on old ipads to upgrade and old iphones to upgrade.

though i suspect the ipad upgrade is the biggest issue on their list.

It's not about Android, it's about moving on. I'm sure in the next 3-4 months, something will be announced that Android is going to move onto 64-bit apps as the main one. I don't see what the problem would be if they did that. Pretty much every Android device (unless you have one of those sub-$100 phones/tablets) has a 64-bit CPU.
    
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
AMD Ryzen R5 1600 Asus PRIME B350 PLUS  AMD Radeon HD7950 16GB Corsair Vengence (2x8GB) 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveOS
1TB WD Blue 500GB WD Blue 120GB Hitachi Windows 10 Pro 
MonitorMonitorKeyboardPower
LG 32LD450 Dell Ducky DK9008 OCN Edition Corsair TX650v2 
Case
Fractal Design Core 3000 
  hide details  
Reply
    
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
AMD Ryzen R5 1600 Asus PRIME B350 PLUS  AMD Radeon HD7950 16GB Corsair Vengence (2x8GB) 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveOS
1TB WD Blue 500GB WD Blue 120GB Hitachi Windows 10 Pro 
MonitorMonitorKeyboardPower
LG 32LD450 Dell Ducky DK9008 OCN Edition Corsair TX650v2 
Case
Fractal Design Core 3000 
  hide details  
Reply
post #50 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckieHo View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by GermanyChris View Post

I took what he was saying as right now with fat binarys you have to load 2 sets of libraries when you cut out the 32bit libs you use less RAM because you're 64 only.

Yes, but most applications are still 32-bit only and that wouldn't be an issue.

In 32-bit vs 64-bit..... 64-bit should take a bit more more memory (something like 1-10%).

Actually on OS X most applications are 64-bit, at least that is what my experience has been when I look at the applications on my MBP.
Quote:
Originally Posted by azanimefan View Post

this is about andriod. They're aiming to keep all the good apps away from andriod.

Basically andriod isn't close to supporting 64bit across the whole environment. this will make many apps apple exclusive. That's all this is about... this is also about forcing people on old ipads to upgrade and old iphones to upgrade.

though i suspect the ipad upgrade is the biggest issue on their list.

What does 64-bit have to do with keeping apps away from Android? Developers still have to reprogram their apps for the two different platforms in two different languages regardless so I don't see how making one platform 64-bit makes it anymore difficult to do this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GermanyChris View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrak View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckieHo View Post

Yes, but most applications are still 32-bit only and that wouldn't be an issue.

In 32-bit vs 64-bit..... 64-bit should take a bit more more memory (something like 1-10%).

32 bit = less memory than 64 bit
64 bit = more memory than 32 bit
32 bit and 64 bit = more memory than a single of the two.

Ignoring the fact that both both 32 bit libs and 64 bit libs are loaded simultaneously as is, is like ignoring to put lemon in a lemon cake. Switching the whole system to purely 64 bit ( their goal ), will yield less memory usage overall.

and that makes me correct..

Are you sure that it loads both for packages that include 64 and 32 bit? I would imagine that it would only load the one it was using. Unless you are talking about disk space which is irrelevant.
    
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel Core i7 5820K EVGA X99 Micro2 EVGA GTX 980 32GB DDR4-2400 
Hard DriveOSMonitorPower
Samsung 850 Pro Windows 10 x64 Pro Qnix 1440p EVGA 850W Gold 
Case
CaseLabs Mercury S5 
  hide details  
Reply
    
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel Core i7 5820K EVGA X99 Micro2 EVGA GTX 980 32GB DDR4-2400 
Hard DriveOSMonitorPower
Samsung 850 Pro Windows 10 x64 Pro Qnix 1440p EVGA 850W Gold 
Case
CaseLabs Mercury S5 
  hide details  
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Software News
Overclock.net › Forums › Industry News › Software News › [ARS] Apple: Beginning February 2015, App Store submissions need to be 64-bit