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Ethanol cooling loop - Page 2

post #11 of 26
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GingerJohn View Post

Series, not parallel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DampMonkey View Post

Good point, and I would assume it gets much thicker as the temps go down low. Could you run 2 pumps in parallel though to reduce the strain? Not sure if thats a thing

Glycol seems like it would be a better higher temperature coolant like in cars and stuff, not G/CPU blocks. I feel like the chilled ethanol would be the better option because we can get it to super low temps and not have to worry about it forming chunks or getting solid and stuff.
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post #12 of 26
ethanol:
while having a low freezing point, its heat transfer capacities are less as water; but it DOES evaporate more quickly.... so you would need a truly hermetically sealed loop
even a very tiny leak (eg at the fillport of the res) will cause ethanol vapors in the room... if enough ethanol vapours in the room, you might feel slightly drunk and think that its a good idea to light a cigarette... THEN it gets interesting biggrin.gif


ammonia:
i like the ingestion quote...
Quote:
Quote:
EYE CONTACT: Exposure to Ammonia can cause moderate to severe eye irritation.
INGESTION: Ingestion is not a likely route of exposure for Ammonia.
INHALATION: Ammonia is severely irritating to nose, throat, and lungs. Symptoms may include
it is not a likely route because your body knows it should stay away from it... if however, you manage to override your body's (gag) reflexes and really gulp down half a bottle, then your most likely future is a slow & painful death... (you should use drain cleaner for that, its even nastier AND you make the news)
It's nasty corrosive stuff, better have your loop designed by NASA if you want to go that route.

But all in all... water, ethanol, ammonia, .... how are you planning to go below zero?
If it is some convoluted contraption that requires cascading phase and lotsa insulation and your own nuclear power plant to provide enough electricity for it to run, it *might* not be worth the effort... just "plain" water near zero is the easier solution.
If -of course- your motivation is "because i can" , then, by all means, go ahead smile.gif



PS: Just in case you were thinking "i could use all this surplus ammonia to give the bathroom a thorough clean" : look up what happens when you mix ammonia with bleach, since there are not a lot WW1 veterans around anymore to tell you about it. Ammonia is nasty stuff.
Edited by RnRollie - 10/22/14 at 4:53am
post #13 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by RnRollie View Post


PS: Just in case you were thinking "i could use all this surplus ammonia to give the bathroom a thorough clean" : look up what happens when you mix ammonia with bleach, since there are not a lot WW1 veterans around anymore to tell you about it. Ammonia is nasty stuff.

Essentially mustard gas, that would probably get you on some terror list somewhere.

To use ammonia he'd have to use copper lines welded to the blocks or use really good hydraulic compression fittings, a chemical grade pump and a welded res. In theory only running the CPU on a loop like that should be easy enough since they sell all metal blocks that you could weld together to get rid of the rubber/epdm gasket in them. Gpu blocks are a bit trickier as most I know of are only half metal and the other half is acrylic.
    
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post #14 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpecTRe-X View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by RnRollie View Post


PS: Just in case you were thinking "i could use all this surplus ammonia to give the bathroom a thorough clean" : look up what happens when you mix ammonia with bleach, since there are not a lot WW1 veterans around anymore to tell you about it. Ammonia is nasty stuff.

Essentially mustard gas, that would probably get you on some terror list somewhere.

To use ammonia he'd have to use copper lines welded to the blocks or use really good hydraulic compression fittings, a chemical grade pump and a welded res. In theory only running the CPU on a loop like that should be easy enough since they sell all metal blocks that you could weld together to get rid of the rubber/epdm gasket in them. Gpu blocks are a bit trickier as most I know of are only half metal and the other half is acrylic.

yeah, you'ld have to replace the acryl, delrin, whatever with a copper plate or thin block.
it all CAN be done.. but its like wearing a bbq apron to protect yourself while creating fireworks in the garden shed... there IS some danger involved. So, if i would really want a ammonia cooling loop... i'ld ask NASA/JPL to design it smile.gif
post #15 of 26
As long as you have the welds checked or done by someone who knows how to weld well and then pressure test the assembled loop you'd be fine. If you really wanted some extra protection you could always include an emergency pressure cap and run its connecting line up a hot air return and vent it externally via the waste water stack or turtle vent.

It turns out that the caustic nature of ammonia is actually the easier part to deal with. The hard part is that it boils at -28F, which means you'd have to cryogenically cool it and store it anyway. Which means that running ammonia in a cooling loop is about as realistic as running LN2 or liquid helium. If anything you'd use in in a pot cooler, except the hazardous gas produced from it boiling prevents that for obvious reasons.

If you really want to use a non-freezing coolant to go sub-zero and still be rather fluid you'd be looking at that non-conductive fluid 3M or DuPont (can't recall which or the name of the fluid) makes. Granted it costs around 300 USD per liter but the mid range one doesn't get viscous until -80F iirc.
    
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post #16 of 26
Thread Starter 
I found this (http://www2.dupont.com/Vertrel/en_US/uses_apps/heat_transfer.html). What if we made a bong cooler out of this stuff?
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post #17 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by CtXPL View Post

I found this (http://www2.dupont.com/Vertrel/en_US/uses_apps/heat_transfer.html). What if we made a bong cooler out of this stuff?

You would very quickly run out of a lot of expensive fluid.

Vertrel has a boiling point of 55°C, the idea is that it boils in contact with the hot component. Due to the latent heat of evaporation this absorbs a lot of energy with no temperature rise. You then collect the vapour and condense it, removing the energy, and return the liquid to the system.

A bong cooler is an open system - you would evaporate the liquid on the hot plate and then spray the vapour out into your bong, mixing it with an air stream that would carry a lot of the vapour out of the system.

Fluids like that are best used with closed systems that have some form of pressure regulation (like an expanding reservoir) - as more vapour is created so the pressure rises, which in turn increases the boiling point of the fluid, reducing its cooling ability. It is not impossible to do, some have, but it takes careful planning. It is also not that much better than good water cooling, and nowhere near as good as TEC or phase change cooling.
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post #18 of 26
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GingerJohn View Post

You would very quickly run out of a lot of expensive fluid.

Vertrel has a boiling point of 55°C, the idea is that it boils in contact with the hot component. Due to the latent heat of evaporation this absorbs a lot of energy with no temperature rise. You then collect the vapour and condense it, removing the energy, and return the liquid to the system.

A bong cooler is an open system - you would evaporate the liquid on the hot plate and then spray the vapour out into your bong, mixing it with an air stream that would carry a lot of the vapour out of the system.

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I've never actually looked into TEC cooling or phase change. How good are we talking?
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post #19 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by CtXPL View Post

I've never actually looked into TEC cooling or phase change. How good are we talking?

Good and very good in that order, with a lot of power draw and, for phase, noise.

TEC can get you down to the freezing point and maybe beyond with a lot of power draw (often requiring a separate PSU) but the TEC itself adds no noise. You then have to water cool the hot plate of the TEC, sizing your loop to handle both the component and the TEC power draw.

Phase is essentially what your freezer uses. A good phase change cooler can get you well below zero, maybe as low as -50°C. It uses a fair bit of power and makes noise - it contains both a compressor and a fan.

Both are suitable for 24/7 operation. Check out the phase and TEC subforums for more information.
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post #20 of 26
TECs aren't usually worth it for direct contact cooling because once you pass the ~50% mark for power input your returns diminish exponentially. TECs would probably work best in a multi-tec chiller then cool the hot sides with a really beefy heatsink and fan setup. There are examples of someone using 4 CoolIt Boreas chillers in a mountain mods pedestal extension but I stopped following it before he finished.

Phase would be better and more practical for longer session runs but if you're just looking to run cooler during summer months then I'd go for a chiller. There are a few to choose from though they're usually made for aquariums. I do know that koolance offers one geared towards pc users but I can't speak to how well it works.

Darlene is actually doing a build log with two 1/2 hp aquarium chillers here that might also be helpful.
    
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