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post #4081 of 4666
Quote:
Originally Posted by trism View Post

I could take the same approach and claim that your head is "messed up". However, there are some implementations that are messed up like the Aurora's, FM's and the CM Xornet v2's.
This discussion was laid to rest a long time ago. Claims like yours have likely been helping to fuel the horrible era of new "gaming" mice all being worse than 10+ year old mice (MLT04) via disseminating the completely false and ridiculous notion that "all gaming mice are more or less good/equal, and any differences people feel are placebo, and it's the responsibility of end users to prove this wrong via technology that doesn't exist yet". People making these kinds of claims were proven wrong a long time ago. Here it is again for the 20th time:

* Here I test two virtually identical mice: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCj6plbNuuE&index=1&list=PLZ2riVNLJly0KG7Z8albMETEmbRB8bCzd - Obvious differences in tracking are shown with mousetester graphs.
* Here I test 3 different FMs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Obth3SPIz44&index=2&list=PLZ2riVNLJly0KG7Z8albMETEmbRB8bCzd - The problems felt ingame are proven via mousetester xVelocity graphs.

People like you used to attack people like me when we would claim the MLT04 is a tier above virtually every other gaming mouse. Now there is virtually unanimous agreement on this among people who have tested it themselves. Thankfully we now have mousetester which while not comprehensive, still does give us at least enough proof to shut down claims like yours.

Furthermore, I would like to know on what you are basing your claim of "implementations that are messed up like the Aurora's, FM's and the CM Xornet v2's". Because this statement by you seems very similar to what you're attacking me for.
Quote:
I've only seen you claiming that mice which have xCounts deviating from the averaged line are bad, which obviously is not the case.
You remember wrong because I almost never use xCounts. I use xVelocity. And in my reviews there is a strong correlation between tighter xVelocity graphs and better sensor performance.
Quote:
That's the only way to prove anything. Right now, the person saying Zowies tracking feeling is the most raw and best non-smoothed input there is is as right as you are.
1. No one says that about the zowie mice. Some people think they are "fine/good", "as good as other mice", etc.. But I have never once heard a claim similar to the ones you hear about the FM and MLT04 that they are "a league above all else", coming from people who have tested all of the mice. Most (not all) people who praise mice with poor sensor performance either never used an MLT04/FM, or there is something wrong/unoptimized with their computer setup, or are not testing the mice properly.
2. I have used mousetester evidence to back up my claims. So your accusations are based off ignorance.
Quote:
Oh I read it, but that's how it is. You stated many times there that FM feels "more connected" and "raw" when it isn't. It can subjectively feel so for you. I don't have any problems if you start using "in my opinion" instead of claiming that your subjective findings are facts or somehow hold more value than those of others.
When there is such high level of concurrence about ingame sensor performance claims I've made (MLT04, FM, KPM, etc.), and when I've proved many of my claims with mousetester graphs, and when we see such high levels of incompetence & lack of expertise in many people who are giving feedback, yes I would definitely say my claims hold much more weight than average.
Quote:
What exactly have you proven? That your subjective opinion is somehow more right than the actual facts we have and the opinions of others are wrong?
I have proven those claims wrong in the past, both in my reviews (which I linked above), and in forum posts which I again summarize at the bottom of this comment. "Actual facts" as in MCU smoothing? I address that yet again at the bottom of this comment.
Quote:
You're a human, you have a bias. You do experience placebo whether you accept it or not, and the shape and other physical factors play a huge role in the overall feeling.
For those first two claims - I've never claimed otherwise. For that last one, I've proven it wrong already - see my reviews.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alya View Post

Wasn't the FM's firmware fixed with the summer edition? Or are we talking about another problem?
The FM has a tracking problem that is separate from the DPI issue that the firmware fixed, and this tracking problem may or may not be related to the MCU filtering delay.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonagold View Post

In my opinion delay is always bad on mice, both buttons and sensor. Only reason for players to prefer mice with delay is because of being used to something and having developed a muscle memory to create a synchronization between muscle movements and eye for specific values in delay..

Smoothing is something that can be controversial when done with small enough delay. Some people may have difficulties to create smooth movements with their hand therefore smoothing could be a way for them to have a decent in-game movements with flawed in real life control.

Reason to prefer less smoothing is to have more accurate control over the cursor while having accurate movements in real life.. Usually made possible with low enough mouse sensitivity.

Being used to something plays a huge part at the smoothing controversy as well..
This does not accurately summarize the discussion.

The reason is that there are people who are either not comprehending the discussion, or being purposely deceitful.

SUMMARY OF DISCUSSION:

* The FM has an MCU delay which people are referring to as "smoothing"
* There are other mice which do not have this MCU delay.
* The MLT04 mice do NOT have the delay.
* The performance of the FM (delay) sensor feels closer to the MLT04 (no delay) than do other mice which do not have the delay that the FM has.
* We still do not know how this MCU delay affects the tracking because we've never been able to turn it on and off in the same mouse.

Therefore we make the following conclusions:

It is not logical to say people who like the FM and MLT04 tracking like "smoothing", or to frame the debate as "if you like the FM you like smoothing". Because certain mice that do not have the delay still feel worse than other mice that both have and do not have the delay. So clearly the delay is not as impactful as some people are trying to make it out to be. And it's certainly not the main factor that is setting mice apart from each other.
Edited by MaximilianKohler - 1/28/16 at 6:45am
    
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post #4082 of 4666
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaximilianKohler View Post

* The performance of the FM (delay) sensor feels closer to the MLT04 (no delay) than do other mice which do not have the delay that the FM has.
* We still do not know how this MCU delay affects the tracking because we've never been able to turn it on and off in the same mouse.

Therefore we make the following conclusions:

It is not logical to say people who like the FM and MLT04 tracking like "smoothing", or to frame the debate as "if you like the FM you like smoothing". Because certain mice that do not have the delay still feel worse than other mice that both have and do not have the delay. So clearly the delay is not as impactful as some people are trying to make it out to be. And it's certainly not the main factor that is setting mice apart from each other.

You're still confusing the ideas of fact and opinion, which makes meaningful discussion impossible. You are not perfect so please stop acting like your own personal thoughts/experiences are 100% verified truth. And you're still implying everyone else is using the term smoothing incorrectly when it's really just you.
post #4083 of 4666
"This does not accurately summarize the discussion."

I did not intend to summarize anything, it was rather my own input to the discussion. The purpose of this input was to show how simple it actually is. All these talking about feeling is waste of time when actual reasons behind feelings are always something concrete, like delay or smoothing. When having no sensor delay and minimal smoothing every accurate sensor feels the same unless other flaws like acceleration or malfunction are involved. There is no need to talk about feelings. Just wrap your head around and figure out what causes those feelings, then we can get somewhere..

When sensor is perfected with certain aspects, only reason to go back to flawed mice is the muscle memory -factor that can be re-adjusted with undefined amount of practice..
When involving feelings in that kind of decision you always tend to go back to that familiar mouse that you have synchronized yourself for, even when the perfected mouse offers higher max performance after the practice which on the other hand might not always be worthwhile depending on the situation..

Shape is something that you can make decisions depending how you feel about it because you literally feel the mouse in your hand and being able to grip comfortably is of course important..
Shape can also be something that can affect to your muscle memory and even comfortable grip can require re-adjusting if previous grip were just different..

Just don't bring feelings in the discussion about science of sensor performance, when the question is how to improve rather than stay flawed because of individual person having different muscle memory..

About the FinalMouse 2015, we have already discussed it through here in previous comments. Having MCU smoothing that causes horrible inconsistent delay as high as 7ms in worst cases.. Other than that the mouse is good, shape is good for some people bad for others.. Minor flaws mentioned here in previous comments but nothing else that I couldn't live with..

Some people are more sensitive for that delay because of wide variance in eye-brain delay, while it is 13ms for some, other might have 80ms delay there.. Possibly can get used to the delay but always hindering more or less..
post #4084 of 4666
Residential flat earther still provides nothing substantial.

Points to own bad reviews as "evidence".

Uses a mind numbingly naive person to claim other mice have excessive input processing and FM doesn't, holding this opinion over debated combed over input data from mouse tester.

Makes case for tight velocity graphs equating to good sensor performance. Backtracked on it minutes later.

Its getting to WBC levels of denial.
post #4085 of 4666
so what's the claim here?
to me it seems something like
>i think 2 identical mice feel different. hey look their mousetester graphs look qualitatively different. wow my feelings are 100% accurate and free from all bias. whatever i say has to be true. don't believe me? mousetester graphs prove i'm right.
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post #4086 of 4666
Just out of curiosity have we ever been given a good reason why the fm is 500 hz.
post #4087 of 4666
Quote:
Originally Posted by TburdzZ View Post

Just out of curiosity have we ever been given a good reason why the fm is 500 hz.

They said at some point that because pros play on various lans with various types of hardware, that 500hz would have less of chance of putting strain on the PC's as compared to 1000 HZ.....
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post #4088 of 4666
MaxK, just curious if you are currently using the IE 3.0 or the FM?
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post #4089 of 4666
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaximilianKohler View Post

Snip! (Click to show)
This discussion was laid to rest a long time ago. Claims like yours have likely been helping to fuel the horrible era of new "gaming" mice all being worse than 10+ year old mice (MLT04) via disseminating the completely false and ridiculous notion that "all gaming mice are more or less good/equal, and any differences people feel are placebo, and it's the responsibility of end users to prove this wrong via technology that doesn't exist yet". People making these kinds of claims were proven wrong a long time ago. Here it is again for the 20th time:

* Here I test two virtually identical mice: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCj6plbNuuE&index=1&list=PLZ2riVNLJly0KG7Z8albMETEmbRB8bCzd - Obvious differences in tracking are shown with mousetester graphs.
* Here I test 3 different FMs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Obth3SPIz44&index=2&list=PLZ2riVNLJly0KG7Z8albMETEmbRB8bCzd - The problems felt ingame are proven via mousetester xVelocity graphs.

People like you used to attack people like me when we would claim the MLT04 is a tier above virtually every other gaming mouse. Now there is virtually unanimous agreement on this among people who have tested it themselves. Thankfully we now have mousetester which while not comprehensive, still does give us at least enough proof to shut down claims like yours.

Furthermore, I would like to know on what you are basing your claim of "implementations that are messed up like the Aurora's, FM's and the CM Xornet v2's". Because this statement by you seems very similar to what you're attacking me for.
You remember wrong because I almost never use xCounts. I use xVelocity. And in my reviews there is a strong correlation between tighter xVelocity graphs and better sensor performance.
1. No one says that about the zowie mice. Some people think they are "fine/good", "as good as other mice", etc.. But I have never once heard a claim similar to the ones you hear about the FM and MLT04 that they are "a league above all else", coming from people who have tested all of the mice. Most (not all) people who praise mice with poor sensor performance either never used an MLT04/FM, or there is something wrong/unoptimized with their computer setup, or are not testing the mice properly.
2. I have used mousetester evidence to back up my claims. So your accusations are based off ignorance.
When there is such high level of concurrence about ingame sensor performance claims I've made (MLT04, FM, KPM, etc.), and when I've proved many of my claims with mousetester graphs, and when we see such high levels of incompetence & lack of expertise in many people who are giving feedback, yes I would definitely say my claims hold much more weight than average.
I have proven those claims wrong in the past, both in my reviews (which I linked above), and in forum posts which I again summarize at the bottom of this comment. "Actual facts" as in MCU smoothing? I address that yet again at the bottom of this comment.
For those first two claims - I've never claimed otherwise. For that last one, I've proven it wrong already - see my reviews.
The FM has a tracking problem that is separate from the DPI issue that the firmware fixed, and this tracking problem may or may not be related to the MCU filtering delay.
This does not accurately summarize the discussion.

The reason is that there are people who are either not comprehending the discussion, or being purposely deceitful.

SUMMARY OF DISCUSSION:

* The FM has an MCU delay which people are referring to as "smoothing"
* There are other mice which do not have this MCU delay.
* The MLT04 mice do NOT have the delay.
* The performance of the FM (delay) sensor feels closer to the MLT04 (no delay) than do other mice which do not have the delay that the FM has.
* We still do not know how this MCU delay affects the tracking because we've never been able to turn it on and off in the same mouse.

Therefore we make the following conclusions:

It is not logical to say people who like the FM and MLT04 tracking like "smoothing", or to frame the debate as "if you like the FM you like smoothing". Because certain mice that do not have the delay still feel worse than other mice that both have and do not have the delay. So clearly the delay is not as impactful as some people are trying to make it out to be. And it's certainly not the main factor that is setting mice apart from each other.



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post #4090 of 4666
The only way your replies make sense at this point is if people on here have agendas to push or have the reading comprehension and logic capabilities of a 3 year old. Either way it's clearly a waste of time to discuss anything with such people.

Just know that if any of you are actually legitimately on here to find a good gaming mouse you're screwing over yourself and everyone else looking for the same thing.

It's a shame that at the very least I still won't get an apology and admittance that I was right all along when the tools finally come out that prove it beyond a doubt, or when you get your MCU fix and it doesn't do anything like what you think it will (oh wait I forgot, it won't affect you the least bit because you completely ignore ingame testing. So you'll see the MCU delay is gone and all of a sudden it will be the best mouse ever since you can't measure any MCU delay anymore. LMAO. Bunch of idiots), just like what happened with the MLT04 debate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bruzanHD View Post

MaxK, just curious if you are currently using the IE 3.0 or the FM?
3.0
Edited by MaximilianKohler - 1/28/16 at 12:33pm
    
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