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post #631 of 787
Vibration sound dampening for the AC is a possibility. I am sure some additional grommets would help the cause.

Here's the wetbench with a 480 radiator attached, just reading the reviews it seems like it would have multiple locations for pumps or reservoir(s). With the height of video card + fittings coming out of the block this chillbox could end up being quite tall.


side view:


What would you fit in a three tiered chillbox like this one? Im definitely keeping the hdd/psu/drivebay outta there but see quite a bit of space under the mobo with this setup.



Here was my attempt at a sketchup using a Alphacool Nexxos 480 monsta 80mm thick rad.
Edited by duffm4n - 1/28/16 at 1:03pm
post #632 of 787
Quote:
Originally Posted by duffm4n View Post

Probably going to run the AC outdoors in an enclosure anyways, was curious is all. Thanks

That is an idea however it has a new set of issues, You would have to have the entire system outside in that method, well the AC and the reservoir.

How these things work is the Evaporator is in the reservoir, an Evap is not on a piece of hose its held to the system with a copper tube that also makes the coil, when you bend it out you have it a few inches away from the AC.

This is what differs split level ACs from window ACs, A split level window AC has to be professionally installed and needs a larger compressor. The Compressor pumps freon through the system both the Evap and the Condenser. Freon has to travel through copper line.

If you were to attempt to make the Evap be able to go further away, you have to have the Freon drained then refilled by a certified HVAC guy. This isnt easy DIY stuff people go to school to work on those thing sand there is a lot of laws concerning them. You cannot even buy freon as a consumer you need a license and just cutting the cooper tube (and letting the freon out) ya that will land you a 10,000 dollar a day fine.

I would honestly suggest you do a lot more research on this subject before you make a decision to do this. This is not a simple water cooling hook the lines up situation you are messing with dangerous parts in delicate systems. This setup requires a ton of thought, planning, and studying, and messing with the AC parts can be dangerous.

I am not trying to put you off from doing it defiantly do it thumb.gif I am just letting you know this isnt simple and you need to do alot more research before attempting to do this, as winging it simply isn't going to cut it.

There is a reason this group is so small and you dont see these builds often, This is Extreme Cooling and with it Comes EXTREME WORK and learning.

If you just want better temps but not Subzero I would look at haliea chillers, they will only go down to 4c however there plug and play just like water cooling they are much easier to deal with and learn about.
Edited by Cyber Locc - 1/27/16 at 2:16pm
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post #633 of 787
Bring on the extreme learning devil.gif Not going to build for many months and and want to do it correctly and apologize for future questions along the way. Appreciate the criticism, just going to stick to brainstorming for now and understand your easy DIY statement. Actually know some HVAC guys and was going to see what their recommendations were as far as first impressions go. Don't think i'll end up going the aquarium chiller. My fear of condensation is why I'm in this thread.
Edited by duffm4n - 1/27/16 at 3:39pm
post #634 of 787
Started shopping around for insulation for the acrylic fish tank. I stumbled upon Kflex after another user insulated a reservoir externally with it. The only problem I see is what they state on their technical data sheet. They offer a PSA version of the insul-sheet and it isn't recommended under -40C.

K-FLEX® INSUL-SHEET® is recommended for applications with service temperatures ranging from -297°F (-182°C) to +220°F (+104°C). For full adhesion applications (i.e. ductwork), the upper temperature limit is +200°F (+93°C). For applications below -40°F (-40°C), contact K-FLEX technical support. The product is used to retard heat gain and prevent condensation or frost formation on below-ambient applications, including utility and industrial process equipment, tanks, vessels, ducts and large OD pipes. It can be used with heat tracing tapes. It also ******* heat loss from medium hot surfaces.

Around -40C is it a general understanding that adhesives will start to have issues? If the chillbox is airtight with silicone and the 2 inch insulation is positioned correctly by acrylic stumps like Orthello's would I even need an adhesive? Is there anything else commonly misused in these chillboxes to avoid at or below -40 C? EX: Don't go below 1/4 inch acrylic because it gets too brittle, only xxx brand thermometers work past -25c, xxx brand fan is one to avoid, xxx brand silicone worked well forever kind of things.

Thanks Again
post #635 of 787
28 days left to sell on this beast... AND free shipping!
LG LW1815ER 18,000 BTU Window Air Conditioner with Remote
http://www.ebay.com/itm/LG-LW1815ER-18-000-BTU-Window-Air-Conditioner-with-Remote-/111887022790?hash=item1a0cfc7ac6:g:56IAAOSwpzdWqAnb
post #636 of 787
Thread Starter 
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Quote:
Originally Posted by duffm4n View Post

Well congratulations, you all killed my dreams of a quad 480 Monsta rad Thermaltake x9 cube. Really amazing builds guys, just completely changed the way I look at extreme cooling for PC's and finally the chance at some substantial GPU overclocks. The fact some of you have kept them up and running for so long as well, I got the bug. I am going to attempt this build in preperation for NVIDIA PASCAL in SLI or TRI-SLI depending how well Direct X 12 games handle frames at that point in time. I obviously still have many months before a flagship comes out, as much as I want to go for Titan X SLI like your setups the money won't all be there as soon as I would like. I work in Aerospace and am in the process of trying to find some mil spec'd sub-zero insulation for the chillbox and reservoir. Will let you know how that turns out hopefully sooner or later.

I have a few variations in mind for my build and wouldn't mind your opinions before a few buys...

First off is the Chillbox:
The mobo I was planning on is the Gigabyte SOC Champion x99 (was capable of handling LN2 at competitions and is or was holding world records for x99)an EATX board and a pain in the ass to find a tray for. The idea was to build a chillbox around a Primochill Wet Bench. Sorry if I am making some of you look this up, not sure quite how to add pics yet. It's EATX capable, can also attach a 360 rad (which i will probably use an Alphacool ut60), it has some mounting options on the side of the mobo for pumps I'd like 3 or 4 that could handle methanol, and possibly a small reservoir to help with temps. I understand acrylic is good to go at -25 and down to -40 and beyond and will be following in your footsteps and attempting a 4 layer LID. Is more than one 360 rad too much airflow? Could I run 6 fans on a rad without causing problems? Where can I go to find out how much PSI are 3 to 4 pumps in PWM mode is the maximum without blowing off the seals?

The chiller:
Hopefully some 12500 or 15000 btu in good shape, made to fit a bookshelf or metal shelving next to my desk. Some quick release options for the tubing maybe? No clue how to start insulating or even how an ac works to be honest. I could tell you almost any sized radiator that could fit in most cases including its width without modding, but this is still beyond me.

The reservoir:
I plan on buying a 5 CUBIC FT Freezer and throwing in some additional insulation inside and end up with around 30 gallons (4 CUBIC FT) of fluid ready to handle whatever I throw at it. The idea would be to keep the freezer powered off, but the amazing insulation would supplement the AC working hard to keep temps lower. Ideally it would have some way to circulate the fluid and be large enough to hold a second ac rad down the road.

I was wondering if sound insulation would be a good idea for the AC or am I just dreaming that it could run indoors at something less than 50 decibels. Mostly the reason to go watercooled with multiple radiators at low rpm.

Will post a build log later once things get rolling. Thanks for any / all feedback feeling better after finishing the thread, but not quite as confident as I'd like just yet.

Also thought one of these would be helpful, not sure if you guys have seen one.
- QDIY Professional Modders Acrylic PSU/HDD/DVD External Rack Tray

Edited:
The problems I can see with the wetbench inside the box are flow restrictions and fan coverage. Looks as if there are extra fittings to go from the top to bottom of mobo. And the radiator fan positions aren't directly onto the board.

Jeez i miss a few days and i plenty to catch up on lol .. good to see the enthusiasm Duff thumb.gif , we are in need of new members so i look forward to the build wink.gif

SLI or tri SLI , had tri SLI twice and really its probably going one card too far for most things apart from benching. The support is ok for it on decent engines but step outside that and your back to one card. That's a few $$ sitting idle for some games. Now two supercooled current gen cards , most games won't max that out unless at 4k and uber options. If you're talking pascal then the games will have to catch up before SLI is maxed out even in my opinion as even room temp pascal sli should easily eat 4k for breakfast.

Re the Rad question one times 360 should be enough, it is for my rig. Try and find the lowest resistance radiator you can get eg lowest psi restriction - it really will be chilling bugger all heatload as your gpus and cpu will be waterblocked. Acrylic is good , in my chillbox atleast , tested down to -40c , apart from the first lid which is 15mm thick acrylic its not directly exposed to the cold and is insulated.

Quick release fittings i would stay away from. Lovely to use yes, but they add psi restriction. Better off with two taps and small section of pipe joining them. Eg shut both taps closed and remove the joining section of pipe. Loose a few mills of fluid but keep your flowrate higher rest of the time. Quick disconnects i wouldn't recommend for chilled liquid - just more work for your pumps.

The freezer idea is great if you have the room. Don't rely on it to do anything but store the liquid however , its not going to add a great chilling effect at all especially under load. The huge storage could give you a nice temp buffer though.

Re A/C indoors for sound , you would have to go to a lot of effort to muffle the noise , could be done i guess but you would need piping coming in and out large enough to supply the A/C fan adequately and a large shroud over it , very difficult. What might be easier is to replace the A/C fan with smaller but quieter fans - many of them and try and cool the condenser that way. The compressors normally make little noise, its the large bladed fan and its vibration that makes most of the noise. Really you are looking at modifying the A/C system to get much quieter for indoor use, eg replacing the condenser with a watercooled condenser and piping to a much larger radiator / condenser with large low rpm fan array. Once you go down that track you may aswell go full custom chiller. If you can easily pipe the A/C outside eg via window , thats a cheap way to deal with the noise.

Having a read of your other posts now ...
Edited by Orthello - 1/28/16 at 7:28pm
post #637 of 787
Thread Starter 
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Just read some more
Quote:
Originally Posted by duffm4n View Post

Started shopping around for insulation for the acrylic fish tank. I stumbled upon Kflex after another user insulated a reservoir externally with it. The only problem I see is what they state on their technical data sheet. They offer a PSA version of the insul-sheet and it isn't recommended under -40C.

K-FLEX® INSUL-SHEET® is recommended for applications with service temperatures ranging from -297°F (-182°C) to +220°F (+104°C). For full adhesion applications (i.e. ductwork), the upper temperature limit is +200°F (+93°C). For applications below -40°F (-40°C), contact K-FLEX technical support. The product is used to retard heat gain and prevent condensation or frost formation on below-ambient applications, including utility and industrial process equipment, tanks, vessels, ducts and large OD pipes. It can be used with heat tracing tapes. It also ******* heat loss from medium hot surfaces.

Around -40C is it a general understanding that adhesives will start to have issues? If the chillbox is airtight with silicone and the 2 inch insulation is positioned correctly by acrylic stumps like Orthello's would I even need an adhesive? Is there anything else commonly misused in these chillboxes to avoid at or below -40 C? EX: Don't go below 1/4 inch acrylic because it gets too brittle, only xxx brand thermometers work past -25c, xxx brand fan is one to avoid, xxx brand silicone worked well forever kind of things.

Thanks Again

Just reading this , the likely hood of your A/C chilled system running lower than -40c in normal use is unfortunately highly unlikely , the high perf refrigerants are generally boiling at ~ -45c soo that sets the 0 wattage cooling limit at -45c. Once you take into account your cooling loss to the environment and full load of your system i think a realistic expectation for that LG 18k unit but would be under full load liquid temp at - 35c to -32c depending of a few things - its very difficult to actually know how effective the A/C will be or your exact system heatload so that's a ballpark figure. Ambient air temp cooling the condenser plays a part so if you can situate the A/C outside and have cold winters that will help a bit too - but not in summer rolleyes.gif

So building your chillbox for -40c temps , as long as its cheap to do so is fine but i would not spend a lot to go any further. What you have too in a chillbox is -ve air pressure , eg the air compresses as it gets cold, i found some of the insulation was over time suctioned off the acrylic walls it was adherred to (slightly in some spots) , not a big issue as the insulation still blocked the cold air from the walls. I found some of the internal insulation compressed a little and therefor parted off the walls a little also. Again it wasn't a big deal and i noticed no cracking etc in the acrylic shell - a bit of trapped air that is getting no cooling is quite a good insulator and therefor the insulation still does the job of protecting the chillbox walls.

I'm not sure any adhesive will hold up permanently and not lose its grip / adhesiveness over its lifetime also , they normally degrade somewhat. I would not worry too much to be honest , just as long as the wooden / plastic / acryllic chillbox walls themselves don't have cold air directly over them the result will be the same i feel. The reason below 1/4 " acrylic may get too brittle is due to the -ve air pressure also , it will bend a bit if you truly have an air tight chillbox. Its worth noting i really only used acrylic due to convenience , i had an acrylic workshop next door to my work. Painted / Sealed Wood or plastic other material can be used for the chillbox. Air tightness is the goal.

Most things its a matter of reading the recommended temperatures , if its good to -40c i think it will be fine , that's a good bit lower than where everyday usage will be. You will find like i did , trying to get information on some things for low temps does not exist or was never tested or has a conservative rating so its a matter of trial and error for some things. eg my chillbox fans are rated to -10c (they work at -35c still however and have done for years).

Looking forward to the build thumb.gif
Edited by Orthello - 1/28/16 at 8:22pm
post #638 of 787
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by duffm4n View Post

Bring on the extreme learning devil.gif Not going to build for many months and and want to do it correctly and apologize for future questions along the way. Appreciate the criticism, just going to stick to brainstorming for now and understand your easy DIY statement. Actually know some HVAC guys and was going to see what their recommendations were as far as first impressions go. Don't think i'll end up going the aquarium chiller. My fear of condensation is why I'm in this thread.

The aquarium chiller will only give you a mild chilling effect, i would say at best half way or less to a modded A/C , their refrigerants and evaporators are designed for 0-5c , holding huge heatloads in that range.

I wouldn't apologize for asking questions , keep them coming but I agree with Cyber it would pay to read all the member threads and the first post in this thread and all the dropdown bits, my xoc thread is long winded but you can see my build from woe to go in 2012 there. You can avoid the pitfalls with the right knowledge. I was lucky and had some great helpers so i'll help you with whatever i can.

My build took 12 wks (first power on), so set aside a fair chunk of time my friend thumb.gif
post #639 of 787
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orthello View Post

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Just read some more

Just reading this , the likely hood of your A/C chilled system running lower than -40c in normal use is unfortunately highly unlikely , the high perf refrigerants are generally boiling at ~ -45c soo that sets the 0 wattage cooling limit at -45c. Once you take into account your cooling loss to the environment and full load of your system i think a realistic expectation for that LG 18k unit but would be under full load liquid temp at - 35c to -32c depending of a few things - its very difficult to actually know how effective the A/C will be or your exact system heatload so that's a ballpark figure. Ambient air temp cooling the condenser plays a part so if you can situate the A/C outside and have cold winters that will help a bit too - but not in summer rolleyes.gif

So building your chillbox for -40c temps , as long as its cheap to do so is fine but i would not spend a lot to go any further. What you have too in a chillbox is -ve air pressure , eg the air compresses as it gets cold, i found some of the insulation was over time suctioned off the acrylic walls it was adherred to (slightly in some spots) , not a big issue as the insulation still blocked the cold air from the walls. I found some of the internal insulation compressed a little and therefor parted off the walls a little also. Again it wasn't a big deal and i noticed no cracking etc in the acrylic shell - a bit of trapped air that is getting no cooling is quite a good insulator and therefor the insulation still does the job of protecting the chillbox walls.

I'm not sure any adhesive will hold up permanently and not lose its grip / adhesiveness over its lifetime also , they normally degrade somewhat. I would not worry too much to be honest , just as long as the wooden / plastic / acryllic chillbox walls themselves don't have cold air directly over them the result will be the same i feel. The reason below 1/4 " acrylic may get too brittle is due to the -ve air pressure also , it will bend a bit if you truly have an air tight chillbox. Its worth noting i really only used acrylic due to convenience , i had an acrylic workshop next door to my work. Painted / Sealed Wood or plastic other material can be used for the chillbox. Air tightness is the goal.

Most things its a matter of reading the recommended temperatures , if its good to -40c i think it will be fine , that's a good bit lower than where everyday usage will be. You will find like i did , trying to get information on some things for low temps does not exist or was never tested or has a conservative rating so its a matter of trial and error for some things. eg my chillbox fans are rated to -10c (they work at -35c still however and have done for years).

Looking forward to the build thumb.gif

I actually have a idea/question about acyrlic view ports while your here. So I know the view port works in your chill box, my question is reservoir. Could I build an acrylic reservoir and have all sides but the front insulated? that way the reservoir has a view port for water levels ect. I have been trying to find how they do this for cryogenics ect but its hard to find info. Even if doing so would require 1+ inch thick acrylic if it could work I would like to try it.
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post #640 of 787
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyber Locc View Post

I actually have a idea/question about acyrlic view ports while your here. So I know the view port works in your chill box, my question is reservoir. Could I build an acrylic reservoir and have all sides but the front insulated? that way the reservoir has a view port for water levels ect. I have been trying to find how they do this for cryogenics ect but its hard to find info. Even if doing so would require 1+ inch thick acrylic if it could work I would like to try it.


Hey Cyber !

I think you could tell the liquid level from a see-through lid through a few different methods , but if you're looking for the side of the res been acrylic that could be a bit risky but 25mm thick might do it (it might be overkill - especially if its covered with insulation most of the time and you just uncovered it now and then to view) . 15mm thick has been fine for air temps down to -40c , liquid however you would have to try - it possibly would be fine with the temperature but ... methanol is meant to be slightly corrosive to acrylic so over time it might also thin - you would have to run without methanol really and that would be hard on your pumps / piping etc.

I think i'd always be worried my res might crack under the low temps and leak etc - and that worry alone would stop me from doing it. No Methanol in the liquid would not work for me either - too hard on pumps.

I think in the lid is the best option.
Edited by Orthello - 1/28/16 at 9:04pm
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