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The 24/7 Sub Zero Liquid Chillbox Club - Page 65

post #641 of 787
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orthello View Post

Hey Cyber !

I think you could tell the liquid level from a see-through lid through a few different methods , but if you're looking for the side of the res been acrylic that could be a bit risky but 25mm thick might do it (it might be overkill - especially if its covered with insulation most of the time and you just uncovered it now and then to view) . 15mm thick has been fine for air temps down to -40c , liquid however you would have to try - it possibly would be fine with the temperature but ... methanol is meant to be slightly corrosive to acrylic so over time it might also thin - you would have to run without methanol really and that would be hard on your pumps / piping etc.

I think i'd always be worried my res might crack under the low temps and leak etc - and that worry alone would stop me from doing it. No Methanol in the liquid would not work for me either - too hard on pumps.

I think in the lid is the best option.

Well the reservoir will be low (below the rest of the system) so if it springs a leak it isn't that bad. I am not going to use methanol because the system wont be on 24/7/365, the system will have quite a bit of downtime and with that fact methanol is extremely dangerous if its not kept cold. It is fine for use when it is kept cold at all times however at a 40% mix (which would be 40C freeze protection) it has a flash point of 85f. It is not uncommon for my house to get 85f I have children that stuff simply is too dangerous.

I would;d much rather have to replace pumps then have an explosion tongue.gif, I plan to use a 50/50 mix of Propylene glycol and water. I am going to look at pumps that can handle it as best as I can but with children in the house extremely toxic and flammable fluids like methanol ya that isn't going to happen.

"without methanol really and that would be hard on your pumps / piping etc." I get the pumps but how would it be hard on the piping? Also thats another good point about methanol its a double edged sword. Methanol is an extreme corrosive, while it may be less viscous it is also eating everything in your loop including the metal. I get why you guys use it but I feel its benefits do not out weight its risks / issues.

Industrial Laser chillers get to -40c and they use Propylene Glycol or Dielectrics not methanol, so I am going to look into what kind of pump solutions they implore.

Also just to note I am not talking about using Antifreeze, which would be ethylene glycol as it also has extreme corrosive and toxicity concerns, plus antifreeze has the silicates that will cause further issues. .

Propylene Glycol is not toxic, not flammable, less corrosive, and I have a ton of it as I am a Vaper and make my own EJuice so I already have a few gallons of the stuff thumb.gif
Edited by Cyber Locc - 1/28/16 at 10:11pm
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post #642 of 787
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyber Locc View Post

Well the reservoir will be low (below the rest of the system) so if it springs a leak it isn't that bad. I am not going to use methanol because the system wont be on 24/7/365, the system will have quite a bit of downtime and with that fact methanol is extremely dangerous if its not kept cold. It is fine for use when it is kept cold at all times however at a 40% mix (which would be 40C freeze protection) it has a flash point of 85f. It is not uncommon for my house to get 85f I have children that stuff simply is too dangerous.

I would;d much rather have to replace pumps then have an explosion tongue.gif, I plan to use a 50/50 mix of Propylene glycol and water. I am going to look at pumps that can handle it as best as I can but with children in the house extremely toxic and flammable fluids like methanol ya that isn't going to happen.

"without methanol really and that would be hard on your pumps / piping etc." I get the pumps but how would it be hard on the piping? Also thats another good point about methanol its a double edged sword. Methanol is an extreme corrosive, while it may be less viscous it is also eating everything in your loop including the metal. I get why you guys use it but I feel its benefits do not out weight its risks / issues.

The reasons you list for methanol been unsafe were all not valid for me , hence yes it depends on how you use something as to if its safe or not like a lot of things in life. My res was external eg outside , always thermostated to -25c hence no danger of flash off or any fumes or explosions etc. You also need spark to ignite - needless to say if you have spark anywhere near the computer you have issues.

Would i run an A/C rig inside with methanol ? probably not without a totally closed reservoir - by closed i mean totally sealed. No exposure to air then no issue possible. On or off then - no difference. Most likely though a custom resoiver for that to make sure the seal is 100% a modded a/c with plated HX for coldside loop would be ideal and 100% sealed as there is no open to air res then.

As for been an extreme corrosive , hard to keep a video card for more than 2 years given the lifetime of them etc and i never saw any corrosion in my gpu blocks - you do mix a bit of glycol in so that stabilizes the mix a lot. I have seen minor pipe thinning over 3-4 years of use , 1mm reduced pipe wall in pvc etc. You can easily replace PVC piping and its dirt cheap so not a biggy just solid pipe through any chillbox walls and hard to get to places etc. Take it from someone who's used it , its not that corrosive.

My resoiver evaporator also is like brand new - no corrosion and looking like it did 4 years ago - been immersed in a heavy mix of methanol / glycol / water for nearly all that time too.

Hard on piping due to pressure you'll be pumping at, more so stress on fittings etc is what i was meaning.

All in all i'm not suggesting anyone use methanol if they are not comfortable , if you can design your system to use it the benefits are huge to flow rate etc but you can get by on water/glycol and a higher pressure design.
Edited by Orthello - 1/28/16 at 10:41pm
post #643 of 787
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orthello View Post

The reasons you list for methanol been unsafe were all not valid for me , hence yes it depends on how you use something as to if its safe or not like a lot of things in life. My res was external eg outside , always thermostated to -25c hence no danger of flash off or any fumes or explosions etc. You also need spark to ignite - needless to say if you have spark anywhere near the computer you have issues.

Would i run an A/C rig inside with methanol ? probably not without a totally closed reservoir - by closed i mean totally sealed. No exposure to air then no issue possible. On or off then - no difference. Most likely though a custom resoiver for that to make sure the seal is 100% a modded a/c with plated HX for coldside loop would be ideal and 100% sealed as there is no open to air res then.

As for been an extreme corrosive , hard to keep a video card for more than 2 years given the lifetime of them etc and i never saw any corrosion in my gpu blocks - you do mix a bit of glycol in so that stabilizes the mix a lot. I have seen minor pipe thinning over 3-4 years of use , 1mm reduced pipe wall in pvc etc. You can easily replace PVC piping and its dirt cheap so not a biggy just solid pipe through any chillbox walls and hard to get to places etc. Take it from someone who's used it , its not that corrosive.

My resoiver evaporator also is like brand new - no corrosion and looking like it did 4 years ago - been immersed in a heavy mix of methanol / glycol / water for nearly all that time too.

Hard on piping due to pressure you'll be pumping at, more so stress on fittings etc is what i was meaning.

All in all i'm not suggesting anyone use methanol if they are not comfortable , if you can design your system to use it the benefits are huge to flow rate etc but you can get by on water/glycol and a higher pressure design.

Ya my concern mostly is the flammability, that is waht really scares me smile.gif. I am looking at diaphgram pumps as an option they have moderately high PSI 1 I had seen. Had a PSI of 30 at 1.2 gpm flow rate and is actually made for pumping oils so viscosity would be less of an issue. I really wish I could afford 3m fluorinert tongue.gif, in all seriousness though I think I may go with Doutherm SR1 its ethylene so its viscosity is 2 where water and methanol is 1.3. However at -30 its more like 42,000 CM, however I am sure the viscosity of Methanol goes up at those temps as well just having issues finding how much.

Its not too expensive I seen it for 135 dollars for 5 gallons, with a 55/45 mix that should net me like 9 gallons or so which isnt bad. I am going to keep looking though, I wish methanol wasn't so dangerous frown.gif
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post #644 of 787
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyber Locc View Post

Ya my concern mostly is the flammability, that is waht really scares me smile.gif. I am looking at diaphgram pumps as an option they have moderately high PSI 1 I had seen. Had a PSI of 30 at 1.2 gpm flow rate and is actually made for pumping oils so viscosity would be less of an issue. I really wish I could afford 3m fluorinert tongue.gif, in all seriousness though I think I may go with Doutherm SR1 its ethylene so its viscosity is 2 where water and methanol is 1.3. However at -30 its more like 42,000 CM, however I am sure the viscosity of Methanol goes up at those temps as well just having issues finding how much.

Its not too expensive I seen it for 135 dollars for 5 gallons, with a 55/45 mix that should net me like 9 gallons or so which isnt bad. I am going to keep looking though, I wish methanol wasn't so dangerous frown.gif

I tried some dual diaphram pumps and whilst powerful they have an irregular sound, high pitched noise which was quite annoying. I tried one so powerful it blew a clamped pipe straight off the barb lol - hell of a mess (outside luckily) ! 40 psi though lol .. In the end the smaller versions were just too noisy for me but who knows a different model might be different etc. I tried a 20 psi version and found it to be onpar with a couple of smaller DC 12v pumps. The 12vdc pumps were more controllable however. I think noise is the main concern with them to be honest , if that's not bad then they are great pump type for this job.

Actually i just remembered , the models i tried also overheated, i don't think they are designed for constant pumping , the ones i tried were shed pumps etc where high pressure is needed for short bursts (i later found out). Make sure its designed for constant use without throttling. I made a cooling circuit for mine when i had it in place but it was effectively heating my liquid so i changed it out after a while and went to 12vdc pumps.

methanol certainly has it drawbacks so it would be great to find out how that SR1 mix goes for you if you end up trying it.
Edited by Orthello - 1/28/16 at 11:52pm
post #645 of 787
Will keep up the reading indeed! More than likely stay with that wetbench, but only the mobo tray(it is half inch acrylic I believe). Those replies Cyber and Orthello must have taken forever to write, grateful! Oh and didn't really mean "criticism" exactly. My Aerospace Parts company is in the middle of an audit and that word has been tossed around 100 times this week. Appreciate the advice.

You talked about not turning on the chest freezer. That would probably just warm up the coolant? The overall goal is to run the chiller as little as possible so my girlfriend literally doesn't shoot me. Still trying to wrap my mind around not thinking about positive pressure in a pc case... If I were to go with a 480 rad with just 4 fans for coverage I wouldn't be in too much danger there. Right?

Lastly if you had access to any material, engineers, cnc machinists, and some assembly help what would you have had custom made for your build? Knowing what you do now, what would you have done different? I work in Quality and people owe me some big favors after this week.
post #646 of 787
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duffm4n View Post

Will keep up the reading indeed! More than likely stay with that wetbench, but only the mobo tray(it is half inch acrylic I believe). Those replies Cyber and Orthello must have taken forever to write, grateful! Oh and didn't really mean "criticism" exactly. My Aerospace Parts company is in the middle of an audit and that word has been tossed around 100 times this week. Appreciate the advice.

You talked about not turning on the chest freezer. That would probably just warm up the coolant? The overall goal is to run the chiller as little as possible so my girlfriend literally doesn't shoot me. Still trying to wrap my mind around not thinking about positive pressure in a pc case... If I were to go with a 480 rad with just 4 fans for coverage I wouldn't be in too much danger there. Right?

Lastly if you had access to any material, engineers, cnc machinists, and some assembly help what would you have had custom made for your build? Knowing what you do now, what would you have done different? I work in Quality and people owe me some big favors after this week.

You could turn on the freezer and it wouldn't heat up you liquid once chilled , it just would not add a lot that's all . Freezers are not designed to chill constant heatloads eg with zero heatload been produced inside the freezer eventually all objects inside the freezer will chill down to about -25c for most deep freezers. If you introduce a constant heatload then the holding ability of the freezer to chill inside to that temp will be reduced.

If you have the room it could help keep your liquid chilled whilst your A/C is off , in that respect it will help. One nice thing about it is you won't have to thermostat your a/c to keep your liquid chilled in the off periods - this will make things quieter as the freezer does not have a choppy fan like the a/c. The sacrifice is space really.

You will have negative pressure in the chillbox. 4 fans and a 480 rad should be very sufficient. You don't need a lot of air flow in there, the air will cycle many times per minute even with low fan speeds.

"Knowing what you do now, what would you have done different?"

1.) built my chillbox taller , i can barely cover extended height cards like classifieds etc .. i clear them by about 10mm once water blocked.

2.) I would not have mucked around with so many pumps , i'd go straight to mineral oil immersion and 12vdc pumps for the pump station, others have had no issues with industrial pumps however i never got the right models it seems. Immersion is rather nice for reducing noise / pump heat / vibration etc too. The nice thing about 12vdc is speeds are easily controllable so you can get the perfect flow rate, ideally you want the slowest flow rate that does not compromise performance of blocked items eg cpu / gpus , that way the liquid is in the reservoir longer getting chilled further etc. 200-250 lph was good for my setup. That does not sound like a lot of flow , but it is at -25c , multiple pumps are better than one - pumps in series undervolted produce less heat and more torque than a single pump of equal power more often than not.

3.) With the A/C try and get an A/C that has high side suction lines eg the copper pipes entering and leaving the A/C its best if they are set high so you can simply put you reservoir under them and the evaporator. The moment you need to compromise the reservoir to fit the suction line you get a potential liquid leaking issues. I did 3-4 seals over the years around mine where the suction line joined the reservoir wall about 3/4 height , all attempts leaked eventually. Slow leaks but annoying none the less. You see the suction pipes vibrate with compressor start / stop / fan movement etc, not only that but due to vibration the sealants eventually get compromised around that joint. In the end i made an internal waterfall over the evaporator and ran 2/3rds the liquid in the reservoir to a height that was under the suction line. Solved the issue for good and had no issues since , performance was improved slightly so it worked out ok. Ideally though try to totally immerse the evaporator if the mod allows it.
Edited by Orthello - 1/29/16 at 1:57am
post #647 of 787
Exactly what I was looking for. Good stuff! I'm not opposed to having oil submerged pumps or starting with something a little taller at all. The reasoning behind the angled wetbench was for easier viewing, but with clearances it sounds like it would be almost as tall as the freezer with space for psu, hdd and drivebay underneath.

Cyber made the subject very clear about cutting into the copper lines of the AC. However I am concerned about a similar problem with the freezer. In some cases these chests also have Freon in the walls(really don't want to compromise the air tightness of the freezer either). Would I have to find a way to bend the tubing up and over the res as to not also cut into the walls of the freezer? If that's the case I would have to elevate the ac to do so. Every time I go back to imagine it the enclosures are growing larger and larger. Hopefully not a full walls height by the time it's finished. smile.gif Will do another sketch up later to describe the concept.

And awaiting results of your new mixture Cyber, sounds promising! I have a 80/20 vg/pg mix of right here. Awaiting to hear how much I've been getting ripped off for juice prices over 2 years, lol.
post #648 of 787
Quote:
Originally Posted by duffm4n View Post

Exactly what I was looking for. Good stuff! I'm not opposed to having oil submerged pumps or starting with something a little taller at all. The reasoning behind the angled wetbench was for easier viewing, but with clearances it sounds like it would be almost as tall as the freezer with space for psu, hdd and drivebay underneath.

Cyber made the subject very clear about cutting into the copper lines of the AC. However I am concerned about a similar problem with the freezer. In some cases these chests also have Freon in the walls(really don't want to compromise the air tightness of the freezer either). Would I have to find a way to bend the tubing up and over the res as to not also cut into the walls of the freezer? If that's the case I would have to elevate the ac to do so. Every time I go back to imagine it the enclosures are growing larger and larger. Hopefully not a full walls height by the time it's finished. smile.gif Will do another sketch up later to describe the concept.

And awaiting results of your new mixture Cyber, sounds promising! I have a 80/20 vg/pg mix of right here. Awaiting to hear how much I've been getting ripped off for juice prices over 2 years, lol.


Off Topic E Juice :) (Click to show)
I vape the same 80/20 or 75/25 smile.gif, I actually do have a small shop but dont not have an online store. I do not make E juice to sell it though I make it for use and mine mixes are pretty simple ones. I dont use a lot of PG but I ordered 2 gallons on accident when ordering VG, so I got stuck with a whole lot more than I will ever use haha, the return shipping was going to cost more than I paid for it.

Yes if you buy premade juice you are paying a very high premium , that said some of the more complex flavors are hard to reproduce. I have gotten to the point where I basically just vape the same easy to make flavors personally. I go the DIY route because of the amount I vape I couldn't afford to vape suicide bunny or the likes lol. I vape only on mechs (I had a variant but it broke frown.gif.) and at .08-.12 ohms so I go through about 20-30mls of e juice a day smile.gif. Making my own juice is only about 40 dollars a month thats for about 1.5 liters, I buy nic in bulk at 250mg, dilute it down and buy flavoring in bulk as well. When I make juice its a liter at a time. smile.gif

If you have the time and patience I defiantly suggest going the DIY route, once you get reusable glass bottles and stuff the cost is very low like a dollar or 2 for 30mls. I still like to keep around premade good juices like suicide bunny and flavors I have problems recreating (or stuff that really aint good for you tongue.gif like custard.) and vape those on special occasions I mostly just vape Cookies and Cream and Monster, I tend to alternate so for a few weeks I will vape monster than I switch to C&C smile.gif. Check out RTS vapes they are awesome for the DIY stuff they have good prices and are fast shipping and good customer support. You can find sites with Clones of your favorite juice (ingredients you can use to recreate it) but its usually a tad off. That is also beneficial because you know exactly what is going into your juice.


I would use something else then the freezer personally, the freezer could work you would have to cut the seal most likely for cable routing though.
Okay another kink in your plan and I am glad you said this so we could help. Your power supply and hard drives do not go in the chillbox, Take this with a grain of salt as I dont have a chillbox and dont plan to. However what I have seen in my reading is this.

Mechanical hard drives platters will freeze they can not be in subzero temps, I think SSDs would be fine but better to ask someone with a chill box.

Power Supply's do not need to be subzero and they will add waste heat to your chill box so these should be outside.

I think you are overthinking it with the idea of the wet bench all you need in there is the board. Although if you dont want to lay the board on a piece of acrylic, check out the Dimastech Hard Bench. It is a bench setup for LN2 use its basically just a motherboard tray that has about a 2 inch rise. You could then route the cables under that and make them look nice in the chillbox. As to your rad before again I could be wrong but I think a monsta rad is a tad overkill I think a decent 30mm thick 360 rad will be plenty. the inside of the box doesn't need to be as cold as the water it only needs to chill the air enough to prevent condensation.

The reservoir also does not need to be inside the chill box but it could be if you wanted. The AC defiantly cannot be inside of the chill box, as its condenser will add a ton of waste heat and defeat the entire system.

Again take all this with a grain of salt as I don't have one, this is just things I have came across reading many threads.
Edited by Cyber Locc - 1/29/16 at 1:40pm
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post #649 of 787
So you guys I just found this locally for 300 bucks what you think how cold could it make some water? http://www.allstatestextile.com/listmachine.jsp?machine=14271# It weighs 300lbs!

I think its a little big for me lol. it does have built in pumps though so there is that.
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post #650 of 787
I was overthinking it. Like I said about positive pressure, it's just the mindset of building a regular case compared to this. Absolutely minimum in the chillbox vs make a huge pc case looked crampt because of all bells and whistles inside (largest radiators possible). And yea I am getting outrageously overpriced juice, thanks for the tutorial.
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