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post #21 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrak View Post

I think the only caveat to this is when developing with Unity or other Ubuntu-based software is involved. This is one of the main reasons Unity and Pantheon have been a pain to port over to other distributions, and the ones who did manage it, run slightly buggy. Having to bring in all of the Ubuntu-specific patched libraries is horrible. I know the guys at Elementary are or at least were planning to fix that issue with Pantheon and last I read were making plans to bring it to Fedora and a few other distributions. So I would assume that means they're reworking their reliance on those specific Ubuntu libraries.

Other than that, the only other difference I can imagine between distributions would be library and tool versions, but resolving those issues is quite easy for most distributions. Easily able to pull newer dependency versions in older distributions or pull older versions in more bleeding edge distributions.
oh totally. I did cover the Canonical point in post #14. smile.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrak View Post

lachen.gif

I swear the only time I ever hear such things, it's those wonderful slackers spouting it off. Every single time, it never fails.

Indeed. If I was to list the single greatest addition to Linux in the last 20 years, it would be dependency resolution. I mean, I have total respect for people who are happy to do all that stuff themselves, but to call people who "lazy" for not wanting to waste their time doing something a computer can do -at least- equally as well, well it's kind of missing the whole point of computers in the first place.

That all said, I do agree with their point about how it's nice to have control of what option dependencies you compile in - but you can have that without needing manual dependency resolution (FreeBSD ports, Gentoo portage, AUR packages, etc)
post #22 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plan9 View Post

People don't develop for Ubuntu though. They develop for Linux, hence why Arch, Fedora and such like all have large software repositories.

And your point about dependacy resolution being lazy is just dumb.dbut we've had these arguments a thousand times already.

Geez Plan 9 just what is it with you anyway? You can be reasonable for a long time then suddenly you can be so offensive or dismissive of anyone who doesn't think exactly like you and to the point of foolishness. Stressed out again, mate? internet Drunk dialing? Some developers DO focus on Ubuntu whether you like to admit/believe it or not. It isn't the norm as stated by BOTH you and I, but it does happen and an example that you even mentioned is STEAM and while few, not the only one. The fact that other distros have large repositories in no way proves that ALL developers develop ALL software generically for Linux. It is a non sequitur. The main point is that you (once again) took me totally wrong and took an inch and made a mile out of it.

Let me be perfectly clear. I did not say that many, let alone ALL, software is developed for Ubuntu first.

As for your last sentence, I stated it was my preference but not the way that Linux is headed but you just had to label me "dumb", not ignorant of the facts (and then prove it) but personally stupid. Just how is such behavior productive on a forum such as this other than to stroke your own ego?
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post #23 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrak View Post

I think the only caveat to this is when developing with Unity or other Ubuntu-based software is involved. This is one of the main reasons Unity and Pantheon have been a pain to port over to other distributions, and the ones who did manage it, run slightly buggy. Having to bring in all of the Ubuntu-specific patched libraries is horrible. I know the guys at Elementary are or at least were planning to fix that issue with Pantheon and last I read were making plans to bring it to Fedora and a few other distributions. So I would assume that means they're reworking their reliance on those specific Ubuntu libraries.

Other than that, the only other difference I can imagine between distributions would be library and tool versions, but resolving those issues is quite easy for most distributions. Easily able to pull newer dependency versions in older distributions or pull older versions in more bleeding edge distributions.

Thank you for adding credence to my point
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrak View Post

lachen.gif

I swear the only time I ever hear such things, it's those wonderful slackers spouting it off. Every single time, it never fails.

Glad it gave you a chuckle but you left out LFS and Gentoo, who along with Slackware are among the few remaining Luddites. biggrin.gif
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post #24 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plan9 View Post


Indeed. If I was to list the single greatest addition to Linux in the last 20 years, it would be dependency resolution. I mean, I have total respect for people who are happy to do all that stuff themselves, but to call people who "lazy" for not wanting to waste their time doing something a computer can do -at least- equally as well, well it's kind of missing the whole point of computers in the first place.

That all said, I do agree with their point about how it's nice to have control of what option dependencies you compile in - but you can have that without needing manual dependency resolution (FreeBSD ports, Gentoo portage, AUR packages, etc)

It isn't "computers" that do it. It's programmers... and it makes their job more difficult and slows development dealing with such a wide variation of often arbitrary details from one distro, or even one version, and the next. If this weren't true we wouldn't have many users and some developers both complaining about the diversity of Linux distros and the "need" for standardisation. As I mentioned it is also a tradeoff, since very few things are so simplistic as to be all good or all bad. Automated dependency resolution is not without it's advantages but to pretend that it does not come at a cost seems unrealistic. Things just don't work like that. It would be as if you were to say that the single greatest improvement to automobiles is the automatic transmission and that stick shifts have zero advantage. TANSTAAFL, mate.
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post #25 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 View Post

Geez Plan 9 just what is it with you anyway? You can be reasonable for a long time then suddenly you can be so offensive or dismissive of anyone who doesn't think exactly like you and to the point of foolishness. Stressed out again, mate? internet Drunk dialing? Some developers DO focus on Ubuntu whether you like to admit/believe it or not. It isn't the norm as stated by BOTH you and I, but it does happen and an example that you even mentioned is STEAM and while few, not the only one. The fact that other distros have large repositories in no way proves that ALL developers develop ALL software generically for Linux. It is a non sequitur. The main point is that you (once again) took me totally wrong and took an inch and made a mile out of it.

Let me be perfectly clear. I did not say that many, let alone ALL, software is developed for Ubuntu first.

As for your last sentence, I stated it was my preference but not the way that Linux is headed but you just had to label me "dumb", not ignorant of the facts (and then prove it) but personally stupid. Just how is such behavior productive on a forum such as this other than to stroke your own ego?

I wasn't attacking you personally, I was disagreeing with your point.so can we save the violins for another day please.

1. You're post was placing a far greater emphasis on examples that are few and far between. Yes we can agree it does _occasionally_ happen, but it's rare in the Linux world.

2. I didn't say _you_ are dumb, I said calling automatic dependency resolution "lazy" is a dumb argument. Clearly you're not a stupid person (you're definitely emotionally fragile, but you're far from an idiot tongue.gif) however that doesn't mean that you can't occasionally make poor arguments. Just like how we all make dumb comments from time to time (something I often admit to).

3. Re your comment to Shrak: LFS isn't a distro and Gentoo portage does dependancy resolution.
post #26 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 View Post

It isn't "computers" that do it. It's programmers... and it makes their job more difficult and slows development dealing with such a wide variation of often arbitrary details from one distro, or even one version, and the next. If this weren't true we wouldn't have many users and some developers both complaining about the diversity of Linux distros and the "need" for standardisation. As I mentioned it is also a tradeoff, since very few things are so simplistic as to be all good or all bad. Automated dependency resolution is not without it's advantages but to pretend that it does not come at a cost seems unrealistic. Things just don't work like that. It would be as if you were to say that the single greatest improvement to automobiles is the automatic transmission and that stick shifts have zero advantage. TANSTAAFL, mate.

LSB et al has naff all to do with the "problems" with dependency resolution.

Just out of interest, and this isn't a criticism, have you spent much time on other distros? Because the complaints you've raised are about file system hierarchy, preferred package managers and system daemons, and such like. All of which are stuff that needs to be addressed by the applications themselves as it falls outside of package managers control. (Well, some of the experimental functional managers might work around these issues, but they're a long way off mainstream adoption and themselves break LSB)

You cannot dictate a standard package version because software advances so quickly, and hence why LSB mandates a package manager.
Edited by Plan9 - 1/13/15 at 10:56pm
post #27 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plan9 View Post

I wasn't attacking you personally, I was disagreeing with your point.so can we save the violins for another day please.

OK. I'll buy that now that it's made clear.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plan9 View Post

1. You're post was placing a far greater emphasis on examples that are few and far between. Yes we can agree it does _occasionally_ happen, but it's rare in the Linux world.

We both said it's occasional and neither specified to what degree so how can you assume mine is "greater emphasis"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plan9 View Post

2. I didn't say _you_ are dumb, I said calling automatic dependency resolution "lazy" is a dumb argument. Clearly you're not a stupid person (you're definitely emotionally fragile, but you're far from an idiot tongue.gif) however that doesn't mean that you can't occasionally make poor arguments. Just like how we all make dumb comments from time to time (something I often admit to).

Since you have clearly spent years on the Internet and also on various Chats and Forums, what don't you yet get about the difficulties of interpreting raw text, walking a compromise line between TLDR and "Not Enough Data" and devoid of the body language we all depend on heavily IRL ? I suppose I am guilty sometimes as well of "making mountains out of molehills" but don't you see that you do it as well? Add to such jumping to conclusions or expanding too far, it seems to me you often default to an adversarial and sometimes condescending position. To whit, calling me "emotionally fragile" is an example of self-fulfilling " deduction for you. I'm not at all fragile but I am often defensive with you specifically, exactly because of this attitude I perceive in your posts. It behooves all of us to not default to fighting. A little diplomacy and courtesy goes a long way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plan9 View Post

3. Re your comment to Shrak: LFS isn't a distro and Gentoo portage does dependancy resolution.

Curious. LFS is listed as a distro on Distrowatch. A rose by any other name? Yes, Gentoo is an odd beast and portage does do automated dependency resolution but it is, last time I ran it (admittedly a long time ago, so I am on shaky ground here) also geared more toward compatibility with compiling from source than many distros and one of the very few not yet falling prey to Lenny and the Boys.
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post #28 of 38
Thread Starter 
I didn't know about the which command..that is VERY useful. In regards to distros installing things differently, I've run in to that at times as well. Debian and it's children vs Red Hat spawn usually. Also, I already have Arch installed...I missed pacman and the AUR...I'm not touching Gentoo with a 10 foot pole. What about Slackware though?
post #29 of 38
I mentioned LSB as one example of the perceived and controversial "need" for standardization in Linux. One step further is that since LSB deals with ABIs as well as APIs, does it not also have concerns for the locations of libraries and system calls? Since many package managers have altered such locations I have assumed this must be handled by such package managers. If this is not so then my using it as an example of efforts to minimize packaging differences is diminished, although not destroyed.

Since you and I disagree on what seems to me to be a battle between RedHat and Debian, with RedHat involved in both systemd and LSB, both of which are heavily biased towards RPMs. Between 2010-2014 RedHat lost shares in the server market and Debian gained very close to what RedHat lost. I see the whole CoreOS and related projects as a means for RedHat to gain that back and widen the gap in their favor. I also suspect succeeding in this will go a long way toward making Distros marginalized and superfluous.

FWIW I don't hate the fellas at RedHat for this nor assume they are out to destroy Linux. On the contrary, if I were CEO I'd probably do the same thing to protect my interests in Linux and the gargantuan sums of money it represents as well as the increased ease of developers having to deal with only one major packaging protocol.

As for your question, "Yes" I have spent considerable time in many Distros although admittedly in the last 2 years, although I have installed and tried 5 others, I did spend less time in them than I have prior to that time. Right now I have OpenSuse, StudioKubuntu, and SolydK on this box in addition to my main. I just don't have as much free time nor inclination to work other distros anymore so I've spent perhaps 100 hours in SuSe, less than 80 in Ubuntu, and less than 50 in SolydK, not including install and base configure time.

I do get the meaning of your question though. Less than 100 hours is a cursory introduction at best and admittedly I am biased rather heavily in favor of Slackware.
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post #30 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 View Post

We both said it's occasional and neither specified to what degree so how can you assume mine is "greater emphasis"?
Ok, I missed the part where you said that then. Sorry mate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 View Post

Since you have clearly spent years on the Internet and also on various Chats and Forums, what don't you yet get about the difficulties of interpreting raw text, walking a compromise line between TLDR and "Not Enough Data" and devoid of the body language we all depend on heavily IRL ? I suppose I am guilty sometimes as well of "making mountains out of molehills" but don't you see that you do it as well?
Sometimes, yes. I acknowledge my faults (often even joke about them) and always apologise when I've been stroppy. Sadly I'm yet to witness you demonstrating the same curtsey.
Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 View Post

it seems to me you often default to an adversarial and sometimes condescending position. To whit, calling me "emotionally fragile" is an example of self-fulfilling " deduction for you. I'm not at all fragile but I am often defensive with you specifically, exactly because of this attitude I perceive in your posts.
The "emotionally fragile" comment was meant in jest, but you're right that it wasn't a very tactful thing to say. And you're also right that I often come across as argumentative and condescending. It's not something I intend, nor even like about myself, but it definitely is the way my posts read. And probably a large part of the reason why I end up making so many apologies laugher.gif

But anyway this is all a huge digression from the thread and perhaps better discussed over PM?
Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 View Post

Curious. LFS is listed as a distro on Distrowatch. A rose by any other name?
ReactOS is also on Distrowatch and that's not even POSIX.
Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 View Post

Yes, Gentoo is an odd beast and portage does do automated dependency resolution but it is, last time I ran it (admittedly a long time ago, so I am on shaky ground here) also geared more toward compatibility with compiling from source than many distros and one of the very few not yet falling prey to Lenny and the Boys.
While that's all true, we were talking very specifically about dependency resolution rather than systemd and/or source based distros.
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