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post #111 of 206
That's really not a bad price at all. In terms of electric cars, the Tesla is top notch imo. I'd consider buying one if it had better range.
However, after building about 50,000 Nissan Leafs myself I can go ahead and say electric cars aren't for me, personally...yet. smile.gif
post #112 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imouto View Post

And you really think that electric cars will take off without cheap and awesome batteries?
With batteries? You just have to go to the nearest station, fill up your car and go back to your home if you didn't while you were working.

In case that you're talking about towns and communities I think that you don't know how ridiculously oversized those farms are. They're literally refusing funding because they don't want to go bigger than they already are.
Once electric cars become popular off-grid will be the best choice for the vast majority of people. There will be lots of options for people who can't generate their own electricity.

I have my doubts about electric cars taking over at all. They'll probably take over a good portion short <50 mile commute cars, but not long range.

I have no idea what you mean by going to the station to fill up the car. Unless you think the batteries crammed inside a car is enough to power a home...

What does being oversized have anything to do with what I said? There will be situations where they won't be able to generate enough power to meet their needs. Unless you're saying that they somehow are able to generate enough power on a calm night to run their refrigerators and lights and everything else.

If by vast majority of people you mean everyone living in rural areas, sure. Suburban... depends. Urban.. nope.
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post #113 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsumi View Post

I have my doubts about electric cars taking over at all. They'll probably take over a good portion short <50 mile commute cars, but not long range.

Not yet maybe, but when we nail rapid charging of batteries, something we have already made significant progress on, then they will be no different from conventional vehicles.


Additionally we may find things like charging sections of roads - inductive charging strips on uphill sections or at stop signs / red lights may give enough of a boost to extend the range of cars dramatically. Maybe combined with solar road concepts to generate / utilize some renewable power (yes, I know the energy density isn't anywhere near enough).

This is all years away though, and represents a significant investment in infrastructure that will only happen after EVs have proved themselves for short journeys.
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post #114 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by GingerJohn View Post

Not yet maybe, but when we nail rapid charging of batteries, something we have already made significant progress on, then they will be no different from conventional vehicles.


Additionally we may find things like charging sections of roads - inductive charging strips on uphill sections or at stop signs / red lights may give enough of a boost to extend the range of cars dramatically. Maybe combined with solar road concepts to generate / utilize some renewable power (yes, I know the energy density isn't anywhere near enough).

This is all years away though, and represents a significant investment in infrastructure that will only happen after EVs have proved themselves for short journeys.

True, I personally see biofuels or hydrogen derived from biofuels as more likely to power transportation and infrastructure. There is just so much organic wastes that simply go to waste that can be utilized.

The other thing I don't really like about solar and battery tech is the requirement of rare earth metals to make many exotic and efficient designs. Mining for them is expensive and environmentally destructive.
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post #115 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imouto View Post

That's not happening, ever. It's more likely for ppl to go off-grid with solar panels than doubling the capacity. In Europe towns just make projects for wind farms and solar to be self-sustainable and sell the excess. Nuclear is totally stopped worldwide and nothing would change that except fusion.

Electric cars are just the logical next step because petrol is getting scarce and expensive to get.
No, the main way to get hydrogen is via natural gas.
You should check yourself on that nuclear thing... china alone is rolling out something like 25+ NEW (not renewing licenses) nuke plants.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 47 Knucklehead View Post

Exactly.

Simple fact of the matter is, until we DOUBLE the capacity of the current electrical grid (several studies have shown that) and start deploying MANY more nuclear (and eventually fusion) reactors, electric cars on a large scale just don't make sense.

Same goes for hydrogen (except for the grid part ... to a degree), because the main method of making hydrogen is via electrolysis and that takes vast amounts of electricity.

You seem to be forgetting that grid demand/excess capacity is not constant. scheduling could be used to manage demand/base load power useage.
check this for figure 1:
http://www.caiso.com/Documents/FlexibleResourcesHelpRenewables_FastFacts.pdf

What we "need" to do is avoid using peaking plants for electric car charging. even if many base load plants are "evil coal", it's still the most efficient way to generate power on a massive scale so far.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redwoodz View Post

Electrics are nice,but in reality you are just creating the energy in a powerplant then storing it in your car.Not very efficient. The real future is in Hydrogen,but big oil will keep it from happening for quite awhile.

Really you'd just be changing one storage mechanism for another.


Hydrogen is a disaster of a transportation "fuel". for one, a gallon of gasoline contains more hydrogen than a gallon of liquid hydrogen. meanwhile Li-ion is something like 90%+ efficient, as are good electric motors, whereas a gas engine is what? 30-35% efficient when not at full throttle? So now you want to make hydrogen via electrolysis (20-30% efficient IIRC) and then put it in an engine that only extracts 30% of the energy you managed to convert into hydrogen storage? that's like 10% overall efficiency!
Edited by u3b3rg33k - 1/15/15 at 11:23am
 
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post #116 of 206
Actually, hydrogen fuel cells are typically 50-60% efficient. And high temperature electrolysis is up to 60% efficient, netting you about 25-30% efficiency. But electrolysis is not the only method of producing hydrogen from water.
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post #117 of 206
I wonder how these things would fair in Northern Canada where we see temps of up to -40 Celsius. I have a hard enough time keeping my car battery from freezing.
post #118 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsumi View Post

I have my doubts about electric cars taking over at all. They'll probably take over a good portion short <50 mile commute cars, but not long range.

Because we will have petroleum forever.

Maybe that's too far fetched.

Because we will be able to afford petroleum forever.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsumi View Post

I have no idea what you mean by going to the station to fill up the car. Unless you think the batteries crammed inside a car is enough to power a home...

The lower option for the Model S is a 60 kWh battery. An average USA household uses 11698 kWh a year. If you do the math that battery can keep running an average household for 2 days. x2 that time for an european household or even x3 if we go by the World average.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsumi View Post

What does being oversized have anything to do with what I said? There will be situations where they won't be able to generate enough power to meet their needs. Unless you're saying that they somehow are able to generate enough power on a calm night to run their refrigerators and lights and everything else.

Again, batteries in each household. If you have more than 1 or 2 calm days in a row your planning was plain awful. Here in Spain there are wind farms that have been generating electricity for 10 years without a single day off.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsumi View Post

If by vast majority of people you mean everyone living in rural areas, sure. Suburban... depends. Urban.. nope.

Taking in mind that suburban areas are on the rise and cities declining I don't see the problem.
Quote:
Originally Posted by u3b3rg33k View Post

You should check yourself on that nuclear thing... china alone is rolling out something like 25+ NEW (not renewing licenses) nuke plants.

And even with those opened it would account for 2% of their balance.

Compared to renewable energy growth nuclear looks like it's retreating instead of still.
Edited by Imouto - 1/15/15 at 11:55am
post #119 of 206
I am all for the development and installation of NEW nuclear plants. most of the early research into safer nuclear power was de-funded/never funded because the original goal was to make bomb grade material. Only recently (on the time scale of nuclear reactors) has there been more serious work into reactors that are built with safety and byproducts in mind.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redwoodz View Post

Electrics are nice,but in reality you are just creating the energy in a powerplant then storing it in your car.Not very efficient. The real future is in Hydrogen,but big oil will keep it from happening for quite awhile.

lol hydrogen is a disaster of a "fuel". Li-ion is something like 90%+ efficient, as are electric motors, whereas a gas engine is what? 30-35% efficient when not at full thro?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsumi View Post

Actually, hydrogen fuel cells are typically 50-60% efficient. And high temperature electrolysis is up to 60% efficient, netting you about 25-30% efficiency. But electrolysis is not the only method of producing hydrogen from water.
I was talking about ICE, not fuel cells (obviously).
My understanding of HTE is it will not be commercially viable until around 2030. Electric cars are viable now for intra-city/commuting use, just not for long trips.

and to go after people asking silly questions about electric cars, just check out formula E on youtube.
 
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post #120 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xeio View Post

Large scale power generation is more efficient than individual ICEs for each car.

Granted, the whole picture is a loooot more complicated. Factors like transmission efficiency over power lines, and just generally efficiency of storing/charging can impact the "net" efficiency. But then, if you start looking at whole system efficiency, then we have to start asking how much gas do we spend hauling gas to gas stations across the country too? Centralized generation is usually on the whole more effective, but it's not a rosy pictue in either case.

Hydrogen has similar problems it's facing to electric. And we have even less infrastructure than for electric. It's going to need to make some big leaps in the next few years before battery technology improves and electric/hybrid cars catch on heavily.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Imouto View Post

I don't think that you know the massive amounts of energy that you need to process and store hydrogen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xeio View Post

Large scale power generation is more efficient than individual ICEs for each car.

Granted, the whole picture is a loooot more complicated. Factors like transmission efficiency over power lines, and just generally efficiency of storing/charging can impact the "net" efficiency. But then, if you start looking at whole system efficiency, then we have to start asking how much gas do we spend hauling gas to gas stations across the country too? Centralized generation is usually on the whole more effective, but it's not a rosy pictue in either case.

Hydrogen has similar problems it's facing to electric. And we have even less infrastructure than for electric. It's going to need to make some big leaps in the next few years before battery technology improves and electric/hybrid cars catch on heavily.

Quote:
Originally Posted by u3b3rg33k View Post

You should check yourself on that nuclear thing... china alone is rolling out something like 25+ NEW (not renewing licenses) nuke plants.
You seem to be forgetting that grid demand/excess capacity is not constant. scheduling could be used to manage demand/base load power useage.
check this for figure 1:
http://www.caiso.com/Documents/FlexibleResourcesHelpRenewables_FastFacts.pdf

What we "need" to do is avoid using peaking plants for electric car charging. even if many base load plants are "evil coal", it's still the most efficient way to generate power on a massive scale so far.
Really you'd just be changing one storage mechanism for another.


Hydrogen is a disaster of a transportation "fuel". for one, a gallon of gasoline contains more hydrogen than a gallon of liquid hydrogen. meanwhile Li-ion is something like 90%+ efficient, as are good electric motors, whereas a gas engine is what? 30-35% efficient when not at full throttle? So now you want to make hydrogen via electrolysis (20-30% efficient IIRC) and then put it in an engine that only extracts 30% of the energy you managed to convert into hydrogen storage? that's like 10% overall efficiency!

The overall carbon footprint is similar between electric and Hydro fuel cells. The differences are greater range for fuel cells,shorter "refuel" time, and can be scaled to all sizes of vehicles,where electric is limited to small vehicles due to weight of batteries. Also you can store hydrogen(a tank) much easier vs storing electricity( a battery) so you are not tied into peak usage and can use more renewable energy sources like wind and solar. California will already have 20 fueling statons by the end of this year.
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