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4770k help.

post #1 of 6
Thread Starter 
As stated, I have the i7 4770k. I love this chip and until now, it has never given me any problems. I know jack squat about OC stuff. My last board (until my new one I got a week ago) was an ASUS z87-pro. It has some 4 way optimization thing on there, which OC'd me to right over 4300mHz. It was great, no issues, never crashed. I never wrote down the settings, which I probably should have. This was being cooled on a Corsair H80, nothing fancy.

I just did my first custom water loop, all EK blocks, and it works great. I got a new mobo, the ASUS Maximus VII Hero. It has a whole bunch of new stuff that I don't care about, but the 5 way optimization. When I first booted the PC up, I went into the BIOS and on this new board, you can do the auto OC right there, instead of the AI Suite in windows. So I did the auto and it OC'd me to 4.5. Crashed every time. I lowered one setting so it brought me down to 4.3ish. It seems to run fine, but every few hours, while gaming it will crash on me. BSOD.

Let me show you some pics.









What can you tell me?
post #2 of 6
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gridsquares View Post

What can you tell me?

Well, the first cold dose of reality is that you're going to need to read up on OC Haswell, because until you do too much will remain a mystery.

Automatic settings are notoriously incorrect, most of the time. You were lucky on your previous example, though I admit I was able to run my system at 4.4 using the automatic settings, I couldn't push further using them.

Automatic doesn't mean intelligent. The system isn't choosing values for your chip, it's choosing averaged settings from some charts. Because of this, some people get better results after upgrading the UEFI, but in some cases that makes it worse.

The only way to really get a satisfactory, stable result is to gain control.

The basics, which you probably know most of:

- There are multiple voltages:

Inside the 4770K, there are separate voltage controls for cache, CPU, IGP and system agent (I may be forgetting one). You'll concentrate on one at a time, the CPU primarily.

- There are TWO multipliers to consider:

Cache has it's own multiplier, and when you raise the CPU, the cache can (and should) follow behind. Example, CPU @ 4.4, cache at 4.0 or 4.2, CPU @ 4.6, cache at 4.2 or 4.4.

- The motherboard's own Vrin is "outside", the others are "inside".

The VRM's on your motherboard should be providing about 1.9v, or at least that's the common suggestion. Intel's statement is that it should be .4 to .6 higher than the highest of your internal voltages, like the CPU (which is usually the highest).

- Fixed is better.

This is a matter of opinion, but adaptive voltages and changing clock speeds complicate everything. Some get it to work even when they're pushing some overclock, but it's tough to control. Fixed clocks and voltages are much smoother to figure out and stabilize. I disabled all C states, set all cores to keep the same speed, set fixed voltages on all options. Idle temps will be a tad higher, but you'll have better control over the load temp targets as you experiment.

It seems to me, too, that this is the way to understand your chip first. After you have figures to work from, you may be in a better position to configure adaptive settings if that's your goal.


- Test with determination:

No one want's BSOD's, but you need them. You want them during your examination of the CPU. This is freaky on Windows - turn off your disk write caching! That's not usually in most guides, but you CAN (not will, but can) crash your Windows installation with directory corruption with OS lockups.

You learn less when you can boot into a higher clock than when you can't boot. It's simple logic. You can't prove a negative. You can't prove the CPU WON'T fail. You can only prove when it does.

Use that.

Here's how I approach it.....

Target a speed...say, 4.2 or 3.7, any target.

Focus on CPU Vcore, set the Vrin (your motherboard's supply) to 1.9 or 1.8 (it's not critical yet) - all options fixed.

Set to 1.1 or 1.2v, something you know works.

Boot, run short tests (60 second OCCT is fine). It probably passes.

Now, set to 1.0v. It probably crashes (if it didn't, try 0.9 until it does).

Now, choose half way between the crash and non crash voltage....that is, good a 1.1, crash at 1.0, next try 1.05.

If it passes at 1.05, repeat.....1.0 failed already, 1.05 passed, try 1.025.

Fails...now, between 1.025 and 1.05, switch to 1.0375 (which usually must round to 1.037 or 1.038).

Doing this finds that one spot, within about 2 hundredths of a volt, that you KNOW fails.

The one's that pass are NOT CERTAIN...you have little information available on what DOES work, but now you know what does not.

Move up a notch in speed. If you ran that at, say, 3.7, move to 3.8 and do it again, knowing that at the higher speed it may not work at the same voltage you found at 3.7 (sometimes it does), but that's the point.

You're going to end up with a chart showing the line of failure/pass at each speed going upwards. You'll learn your chip's curve, where it needs more voltage at particular speeds.

The lowest pass voltage is not your target voltage for your setup, it's your absolute minimum to boot. From there you can judge a margin of safety upwards.

Typically you can say that the notch above the failure point of any speed is close to the operating point of the next lower speed (not always, some speed "rows" are about the same).

For example, let's say you learn that your chip fails at 1.16 at 4.2 Ghz, but passes at 1.18 at 4.2Ghz.

If you end up running at 4.0 Ghz, you know it will also pass at 1.18. If your chart shows it failed at 1.14 but passed at 1.16, 1.18 is a STARTING point for testing long term stable operation.

Now you're working on information. You can consider an engineered margin above the absolute minimum the chip requires.

Likewise, if that chip failed at 1.19 at 4.4, but passed at 1.2 at 4.4, it's likely that at 4.0 1.18v or 1.19v is going to be stable. It's not certain, but likely.

At least you know you don't have to keep pushing upwards to 1.25 targeting 4.0 on a chip with that curve.

Typically, 3 to 6 hundredths (.03 to .06) voltage above the lowest passing test is about right.

All that, assuming you ignored cache.

You target some speed using this kind of research, then bump cache a nudge in voltage if you have long term stability problems (or maybe it's RAM, system agent....etc).

Read up. Find a stable, near stock speed you can rely on for daily use, and plan on frequent trials with charts and notes. It will take a few days, maybe a couple of weeks - and you'll want to revisit this "series" of tests later, since the chip changes a little as it ages.

Once you learn your chip's personality, you'll know what it doesn't like, what it needs, and where it can go.
Edited by JVene - 1/14/15 at 12:32pm
post #3 of 6
What the man says is important. The fact that you know your cpu can run at 4.3Ghz "Stable" is great. Something a little more simple could be to focus on the Core Mulitplier ( 43 and sync all cores in the BIOS)

PS: Also if you haven't flashed to the latest BIOS do so please with EZ flash utility in BIOS. You will need to format a USB to FAT 32 and go to ASUS Site for Motherboard Support to download latest version.

After Dialing in the Core Multi (43) and setting to SYNC ALL CORES

Scroll down to Core Voltage and Try what the man above me was saying about trying out 1.1V or 1.2V for power supplied for the overclock.

Stress test and Repeat. Ram can be manually set in BIOS to its true Speed (1600, 1866 etc)

The Cautious One.
     
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Corsair Dominator Platinum 2666mhz DDR4 4 Gb Q... Dominator Light Bar Kits x 2 Crucial 240 SSD  Seagate 7200 Rpm Baracuda 
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EK Rampage V Mosfet WaterBlock Original CSQ NB Eloops B12 - 2 1300rpm  Phobia 8way 4pin Fan Controller x 2 Ek Single Link CSQ Bridge x 2 
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Bitspower Z Tank (Clear) 250mm x 2 980 WaterBlocks x 2 Ek DDC Pump Top (Acrylic) x 2 Primochill 3/8" x 1/2" OD Clear Tubing 
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post #4 of 6
Got my 4770k to 4.5 by never truly 100% stable.

I just leave mine at 4.4 and call it a good day.

It's not like you'd notice anyway. Just enjoy the chip and your PC.
post #5 of 6
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toque View Post

Got my 4770k to 4.5 by never truly 100% stable.

I just leave mine at 4.4 and call it a good day.

It's not like you'd notice anyway. Just enjoy the chip and your PC.

At some point this will be True.

TCO
     
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Seagate 7200 Rpm Baracuda Crucial M500 512 SSD Crucial M500 480 SSD EK 480mm Coolstream XTX x 2 
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EK Rampage V Mosfet WaterBlock Original CSQ NB Eloops B12 - 2 1300rpm  Phobia 8way 4pin Fan Controller x 2 Ek Single Link CSQ Bridge x 2 
CoolingCoolingCoolingCooling
Bitspower Z Tank (Clear) 250mm x 2 980 WaterBlocks x 2 Ek DDC Pump Top (Acrylic) x 2 Primochill 3/8" x 1/2" OD Clear Tubing 
CoolingCoolingOSMonitor
Bitspower 12mm Acyrlic Tubing 19" x 4  XSPC 3/8" x 1/2" Compression Fittings x 12 Windows 7 Professional 64 Bit Crossover 324K 
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Corsair Dominator Platinum 2666mhz DDR4 4 Gb Q... Dominator Light Bar Kits x 2 Crucial 240 SSD  Seagate 7200 Rpm Baracuda 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveCooling
Seagate 7200 Rpm Baracuda Crucial M500 512 SSD Crucial M500 480 SSD EK 480mm Coolstream XTX x 2 
CoolingCoolingCoolingCooling
Tons of Fittings Supremacy Evo Copper EK  XSPC 240mm Radiator V3 x 2 Swiftech MCP35X PMW Pump DDC x 2 
CoolingCoolingCoolingCooling
EK Rampage V Mosfet WaterBlock Original CSQ NB Eloops B12 - 2 1300rpm  Phobia 8way 4pin Fan Controller x 2 Ek Single Link CSQ Bridge x 2 
CoolingCoolingCoolingCooling
Bitspower Z Tank (Clear) 250mm x 2 980 WaterBlocks x 2 Ek DDC Pump Top (Acrylic) x 2 Primochill 3/8" x 1/2" OD Clear Tubing 
CoolingCoolingOSMonitor
Bitspower 12mm Acyrlic Tubing 19" x 4  XSPC 3/8" x 1/2" Compression Fittings x 12 Windows 7 Professional 64 Bit Crossover 324K 
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Crucial 512 SSD EK Supremacy EVO White Bitspower 150ml Reservoir POM White x 2 Swiftech 18w DDC x 2 
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post #6 of 6
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toque View Post

Got my 4770k to 4.5 by never truly 100% stable.

I just leave mine at 4.4 and call it a good day.

It's not like you'd notice anyway. Just enjoy the chip and your PC.

That's wisdom.

I ran my old AMD 955 at 3.7 for years, which wasn't a huge bump but noticeable over it's stock 3.2, and I'd still be running it with very good productive results if I didn't require some of the newer chip's instruction set. That old chip could hit 4.0, but would have required $100+ in cooling to sustain it, which didn't make much sense.

I'm running my 4790K at 4.4, and compared to that trusty old AMD, most performance metrics are roughly triple, easily 2.6+ even at the stock 4.0. I have this psychological intrigue with the number 4.5 Ghz, but I really can't figure out why. Just yesterday this machine was running 4 VM's with video transcodes in the background of the host Win 8.1, Adobe Illustrator and Photoshop in the host, a build of Android 5.0x OS working in the Linux VM, a debugging session in the FreeBSD, while the Win8 VM was serving a remote desktop session of Adobe Media encoder for another person to use because theirs didn't have that installed, a debugging / reverse engineering session in the Win7 VM (a slow, ongoing thing), with video preview in the host occasionally interrupting as transcodes finished. CPU Usage occasionally peaks to 100%, hovers mostly around 85 to 90, so the extra 100Mhz wouldn't really make a difference I would notice.

Certainly not like the difference from the AMD @ 3.7 to the i7 @ 4.4 has made. There would be no video preview possible while the transcodes and compilations consumed the AMD.

Even though competition between Intel and AMD has all but evaporated, the "stagnated" position we're in is a level of performance simply impossible for under $10 million in 2001.

The original Cray 1, priced around $5 million in 1976 dollars, was basically a quad core 64 bit machine at 80 Mhz. That's 0.08 Ghz. At that time it was such an advancement that the US Government considered it's technology a national secret. A good reason for citing that particular machine is that, aside from elements found in the CDC 6600 and 7600 Cray also designed, the Cray 1 was the first machine to fully demonstrate most or all of the concepts found in modern CPU's. Well over half of the technology (maybe more like 80%) of what we considered "developments" from the 486 through the Core2 architecture are found in the Cray 1.

It also required a 100,000+ watt power supply, with 5.5 tons of phase change cooling (it's own air conditioner).

Yeah, 4.4 will do, just fine on air.
Edited by JVene - 1/17/15 at 7:27am
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