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Zowie releases EC1-A and EC2-A - Page 138

post #1371 of 2813
I haven't had a chance to re-test 1000hz yet, but I'm still really curious as to why this mouse feels more "loose" at the 1000hz rate compared to 500. I have exclusively used 1000hz on my deathadders for like the past 3 years or so. I never got the sensation that 1000 felt "faster" than 500 with those mice. Kind of confused honestly. I want to use 1000 because even though it may not be noticeable, the fact remains than 1ms is better than 2ms.. but if the mouse feels more precise & controllable TO ME at 500hz.... ugh.

Edit: Ok, I just put my mouse back to 1000hz ... and very slow adjustments are tracking fine for me. Is that what you wanted to know?

Maybe my issue is purely placebo. I really don't know. Will my sensitivity change between 500/1000? At all, even a minute amount? I'm gonna leave it at 1000 for the time being and do some more in-game tests.

Here are some movement recorder tests of 500hz and 1000hz

500:

http://s30.postimg.org/3yuuoupch/500hz_test.png


1000:

http://s12.postimg.org/i83dv5ivx/1000hz_test.png

I didn't resize them, so rather than embedding a 1080p sized picturre on the forum, just goto the links.

Anyone see anything wrong with either of those? They both look fine to me. I'm just really curious as to why 500hz feels more controllable. I'd rather be using 1000hz since that is the default setting for the mouse.

If it means anything, I currently am using a 120hz monitor. Keep in mind, the difference I am describing is very subtle.
Edited by KFieLd - 10/21/15 at 6:39pm
post #1372 of 2813
I noticed a difference as well and switched to 500hz right away.
post #1373 of 2813
Quote:
Originally Posted by KFieLd View Post

I haven't had a chance to re-test 1000hz yet, but I'm still really curious as to why this mouse feels more "loose" at the 1000hz rate compared to 500. I have exclusively used 1000hz on my deathadders for like the past 3 years or so. I never got the sensation that 1000 felt "faster" than 500 with those mice. Kind of confused honestly. I want to use 1000 because even though it may not be noticeable, the fact remains than 1ms is better than 2ms.. but if the mouse feels more precise & controllable TO ME at 500hz.... ugh.

Edit: Ok, I just put my mouse back to 1000hz ... and very slow adjustments are tracking fine for me. Is that what you wanted to know?

Maybe my issue is purely placebo. I really don't know. Will my sensitivity change between 500/1000? At all, even a minute amount? I'm gonna leave it at 1000 for the time being and do some more in-game tests.

Here are some movement recorder tests of 500hz and 1000hz

500:

http://s30.postimg.org/3yuuoupch/500hz_test.png


1000:

http://s12.postimg.org/i83dv5ivx/1000hz_test.png

I didn't resize them, so rather than embedding a 1080p sized picturre on the forum, just goto the links.

Anyone see anything wrong with either of those? They both look fine to me. I'm just really curious as to why 500hz feels more controllable. I'd rather be using 1000hz since that is the default setting for the mouse.

If it means anything, I currently am using a 120hz monitor. Keep in mind, the difference I am describing is very subtle.

Must be because of unstable polling rate. So far, most 3310 and 3988s cant hold as stable of a polling rate at 1000 as at 500. Am010 and 3366 can, for example. 3050 should also be better at it.
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post #1374 of 2813
with proper firmware one can have stable 1000 with any sensor

note that the 3090 is difficult to make good firmware for though, since it has uses only 8bits for storing motion counts. so in order for it to not prematurely neg accel for the higher dpi steps, the mcu must read and clear the motion registers more than once every millisecond. and for whatever reason apparently many odms can't write good firmware where the extra motion register reads don't interfere with usb stuff. well that's my understanding of if anyway...

for mice with more modern sensors which use 12bits (305x, am010, 3320) or 16bits (9500,9800,3310,3988,3366), there is no excuse for not having firmware that's stable
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post #1375 of 2813
Quote:
Originally Posted by qsxcv View Post

with proper firmware one can have stable 1000 with any sensor

note that the 3090 is difficult to make good firmware for though, since it has uses only 8bits for storing motion counts. so in order for it to not prematurely neg accel for the higher dpi steps, the mcu must read and clear the motion registers more than once every millisecond. and for whatever reason apparently many odms can't write good firmware where the extra motion register reads don't interfere with usb stuff. well that's my understanding of if anyway...

for mice with more modern sensors which use 12bits (305x, am010, 3320) or 16bits (9500,9800,3310,3988,3366), there is no excuse for not having firmware that's stable

Indeed, the 9800 family sensors should most definitely have the proper hardware to do it. I mean Logitech pulled it off with g402's am010, even though it's technically a weaker sensor. It's just that, like you said, most implementations fail to do it. 965-970-980-990-1000-992-970 etc etc, for example, is not stable.
People fail to realize this and give praise to 3310 where it's not due. 3310/3988, for example, are very capable sensors, but most manufacturers can't seem to squeeze out it's potential. I mean I haven't tested every unit and mouse with these sensors, but enough to see that this is becoming a pattern.
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post #1376 of 2813
I switched back to 500hz.. leaving it there. At the end of the day it's not going to make me better/worse regardless if I'm using 500 or 1000. Plenty of professional players still use 500hz and do just fine lol.
post #1377 of 2813
Quote:
Originally Posted by ramraze View Post

Indeed, the 9800 family sensors should most definitely have the proper hardware to do it. I mean Logitech pulled it off with g402's am010, even though it's technically a weaker sensor. It's just that, like you said, most implementations fail to do it. 965-970-980-990-1000-992-970 etc etc, for example, is not stable.
People fail to realize this and give praise to 3310 where it's not due. 3310/3988, for example, are very capable sensors, but most manufacturers can't seem to squeeze out it's potential. I mean I haven't tested every unit and mouse with these sensors, but enough to see that this is becoming a pattern.
no no no no no
http://www.overclock.net/t/1577033/question-about-mouse-input-polling-rate/0_100#post_24511221
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post #1378 of 2813

Well, most mice feel unstable and the movements don't feel fluid. Logitech's sensors feel fluid and stable + my aim is more stable + I make more natural movements and it's easier to keep up with erratic movements. You don't have to measure this once you get accustomed to it. The fact remains that many mice are unstable at 1000 hz or they don't make a good job on the implementation which leads to unstability. And yes, 3310 and 3988 are capable technically to get more or less (or at least way more) balanced/stable 1000hz.

You don't have to agree with me, but facts are facts. No matter how you present them or approach the explanation.
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post #1379 of 2813
when you see a mouse give numbers like 980,970,1010,etc on your computer

if you took the same mouse and plugged it into my computer or any other with stable usb report timing, you'll see 1000,999,1000,1001,etc...

it's not because of the mouse

mouse do not affect polling stability AT ALL. this isnt something to agree or disagree about. it's a fact about how usb works; polls are initiated by the host

the only thing mice can do is choose to not respond to polls. see the evga x3 link in the link above.

what mousemovementrecroder, mousetester,dimr,etc show is not the polling but the timing of when the usb reports are translated by the computer into rawinput messages or whatever. polling itself is extremely stable; i've look on my oscilloscope and there's <5nanosecond jitter in the timing of the usb communications. the reason we see so much jitter in mouseteser and whatever is because the time it takes for the rest of the stack (mobo hardware, windows) isnt constant, thats where the 970,980,1020,1030,etc... fluctuations come from

if you see something like 1007,1030,960,520,1039,480,979
in mousemovementrecorder
or equivalently
1,1,1,2,1,2,1
in a mousetester interval plot

that means the mouse is skipping reports. this is normal behavior for low speed motion since the mouse doesnt always have data to report. but if youre moving consistently and still see skipped reports, that means the firmware is not good. e.g. torq x3 and many other 3090 mice.
this sort of thing is the ONLY issue with firmware that you can determine from mousemovementrecorder Hz's or mousetester interval plots. again, small deviations from 1000 like 960hz in mousemovementrecorder or equivalently a few 10s of us jitter in mousetester are due to your computer
Edited by qsxcv - 10/22/15 at 3:55pm
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post #1380 of 2813
Quote:
Originally Posted by qsxcv View Post

when you see a mouse give numbers like 980,970,1010,etc on your computer

if you took the same mouse and plugged it into my computer or any other with stable usb report timing, you'll see 1000,999,1000,1001,etc...

it's not because of the mouse

mouse do not affect polling stability AT ALL. this isnt something to agree or disagree about. it's a fact about how usb works; polls are initiated by the host

the only thing mice can do is choose to not respond to polls. see the evga x3 link in the link above.

what mousemovementrecroder, mousetester,dimr,etc show is not the polling but the timing of when the usb reports are translated by the computer into rawinput messages or whatever. polling itself is extremely stable; i've look on my oscilloscope and there's <5nanosecond jitter in the timing of the usb communications. the reason we see so much jitter in mouseteser and whatever is because the time it takes for the rest of the stack (mobo hardware, windows) isnt constant, thats where the 970,980,1020,1030,etc... fluctuations come from

if you see something like 1007,1030,960,520,1039,480,979
in mousemovementrecorder
or equivalently
1,1,1,2,1,2,1
in a mousetester interval plot

that means the mouse is skipping reports. this is normal behavior for low speed motion since the mouse doesnt always have data to report. but if youre moving consistently and still see skipped reports, that means the firmware is not good. e.g. torq x3 and many other 3090 mice.
this sort of thing is the ONLY issue with firmware that you can determine from mousemovementrecorder Hz's or mousetester interval plots. again, small deviations from 1000 like 960hz in mousemovementrecorder or equivalently a few 10s of us jitter in mousetester are due to your computer

Well, if you can take a moment and look at the screenshots I took of movement recorder, do you see anything that stands out to you?
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