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Windows audio stack sucks, anything higher than stereo 16 bit 44.1k has higher cursor lag - Page 13  

post #121 of 258
You was saying that changing bitrate and frequency didn't improve input lag but only made cursor feel different, you changed your opinion? And what about that application compatibility service?
post #122 of 258
Quote:
Originally Posted by christoph View Post

hmmmm


I've test again

I have plugged into my computer;

1x logitec control unit
1x Saitek control pad
1x Razer lycosa KB
1x Razer Lachesis mouse
1x USB Bluetooth controller
1x USB wireless device
1x Tritton 5.1 surround headset attached to onboard audio ( which is suppose to be worst )
1x Ati video card
1x Nvidia video card
1x Acer lcd monitor 1920 x 1080 2ms responsive


I've always set in realtek control panel, the 24bits 192000Hz option, I use the windows media player to reproduce 320 Kb audio files as Flac audio files



and, I don't understand what you talking about...

can't your problem be related to something else?

Quote:
Originally Posted by r0ach View Post

Instead of pretending that Bill Gates hand picks every optimized setting on Windows possible, why don't you actually just test one of the easy to notice settings yourself? Change audio bitrate to 16 bit 44.1k, then change it to 24bit 192k. The difference is stupidly easy to notice for mouse movement. The only way you can't notice it is if you can't notice the difference in vsync on and off.

Do you think settings like HPET on/off are placebo too? What's with these people. There's tons of PC settings that alter mouse movement.

You're using a non-realtime OS that sucks at multitasking and sucks at heavy IO without being detrimental to other components. It's the nature of general purpose, modular hardware with no engineering done to priortize input devices. The audio stack is given too much priority in comparison because it's too easy to quantify bad audio (it makes loud popping sounds) compared to bad mouse movement.


what do you think I did there? do you have any specific idea on how to test 100% this you saying?
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post #123 of 258
Sorry to seem noob. But how on earth does a sound card effect mouse cursor movement. Negatively or otherwise?
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post #124 of 258
Sounds like you just need to buy an AMD GPU with TrueAudio,like the R9 285. wink.gif
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post #125 of 258
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redwoodz View Post

Sounds like you just need to buy an AMD GPU with TrueAudio,like the R9 285. wink.gif

But then the mouse might hear a sound on its left (or right, actually, but everyone knows it is less prone to it) and get startled, thus skipping a poll or two. wink.gif Or even panic and turn 180 degrees in order to run back!
Then you would have "scared cursor".



On a more serious note - please do tell me how you feel so confident about 1000 microseconds (1ms) of difference, at best, let alone the lesser differences you claim to feel when you are constrained by your monitor's input latency and, specifically, different color transition times and different rise and fall times between different shades? I can't imagine how much this must bother you in-game. It probably drives you insane when it renders your tenth-of-a-millionth-of-a-second optimizations completely unnoticeable.


Or, if anyone can actually enlighten me on that with some quantifiable data, I'd be able to learn whether it would have an effect on perception or not, since I am nowhere near the level of .001-.5ms sensitivity to actually experience it.
A smudgy trail that is still in transition must be absolute disaster in such a pixel-perfect environment.
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post #126 of 258
no, seriously I'm here in this thread to see what I can get out of this in knowledge wise

but your "lag" can't actually be related to something else? like your cpu not keeping up? or your hard drive struggling with all the data it has to pull?? or your RAM?

cuz you just don't say what hardware you own, and if is those 3 lines you have in the hardware tab, then I think 8 GB at 7-8-7 with 1.45 volts, for me that needs little bit more juice...
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post #127 of 258
Quote:
Originally Posted by fragamemnon View Post

But then the mouse might hear a sound on its left (or right, actually, but everyone knows it is less prone to it) and get startled, thus skipping a poll or two. wink.gif Or even panic and turn 180 degrees in order to run back!
Then you would have "scared cursor".



On a more serious note - please do tell me how you feel so confident about 1000 microseconds (1ms) of difference, at best, let alone the lesser differences you claim to feel when you are constrained by your monitor's input latency and, specifically, different color transition times and different rise and fall times between different shades? I can't imagine how much this must bother you in-game. It probably drives you insane when it renders your tenth-of-a-millionth-of-a-second optimizations completely unnoticeable.


Or, if anyone can actually enlighten me on that with some quantifiable data, I'd be able to learn whether it would have an effect on perception or not, since I am nowhere near the level of .001-.5ms sensitivity to actually experience it.
A smudgy trail that is still in transition must be absolute disaster in such a pixel-perfect environment.

Here's a good bit of data for you and the OP.

http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/statistics

Average human reaction time is around 250ms. A pro athlete or gamer has a lower reaction time than that, but I'm having a hard time finding quantifiable data on that topic.

ASUS ROG swift monitor reaction time: 1ms GTG

Assuming we use a framerate of 120, the average frametime is 8.33ms

So we're up to about 9.33ms. I'm going to give gamers the benefit of the doubt here and say our reaction time is usually around 200ms (lower than the average 250ms by most normal people). That means the FASTEST you're going to see a new frame and then react is around 209ms

This is why a few microseconds seems like an inconsequential loss to me. We're talking about less than 1% difference in reaction time. When you take human perception/reaction time into account, it really is very difficult to feel the difference between 209ms and 208.5ms. However, the difference between 120fps (8.33ms), 60 FPS (16.7ms) and 30 FPS (33.4ms) is definitely perceivable.

In other words:

120 fps: 208.33ms
60 fps: 216.7ms
30 fps: 233.4ms

There's a pretty large gap between 30 and 60, but I can also attest to the fact that 120 fps on a good monitor feels smoother than 60fps. Therefore, I am agreeing that perceptibly, there is a huge difference between 30, 60, and 120 fps, but we are talking about a difference of 25ms per frame! Compare that to the less than 1ms that r0ach is trying to explain here, and it becomes even more crazy when human reaction time is usually over 200ms.

TL;DR Human Reaction time makes it nearly impossible to feel a 0.5ms or even 1ms difference in reaction. The synapses in our brain and nerve endings in our arm are simply too slow. When you amp that up to 16ms (60 fps) or 33ms (30 fps), though, that's when the perception becomes quantifiable and real. We're not robots, so honestly, I'm not going to pretend that I can feel the difference between 5 microseconds and 1 millisecond.
Edited by Mad Pistol - 1/19/15 at 5:14am
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post #128 of 258
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Pistol View Post

snip (Click to show)
Quote:
Originally Posted by fragamemnon View Post

But then the mouse might hear a sound on its left (or right, actually, but everyone knows it is less prone to it) and get startled, thus skipping a poll or two. wink.gif Or even panic and turn 180 degrees in order to run back!
Then you would have "scared cursor".



On a more serious note - please do tell me how you feel so confident about 1000 microseconds (1ms) of difference, at best, let alone the lesser differences you claim to feel when you are constrained by your monitor's input latency and, specifically, different color transition times and different rise and fall times between different shades? I can't imagine how much this must bother you in-game. It probably drives you insane when it renders your tenth-of-a-millionth-of-a-second optimizations completely unnoticeable.


Or, if anyone can actually enlighten me on that with some quantifiable data, I'd be able to learn whether it would have an effect on perception or not, since I am nowhere near the level of .001-.5ms sensitivity to actually experience it.
A smudgy trail that is still in transition must be absolute disaster in such a pixel-perfect environment.

Here's a good bit of data for you and the OP.

http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/statistics

Average human reaction time is around 250ms. A pro athlete or gamer has a lower reaction time than that, but I'm having a hard time finding quantifiable data on that topic.

ASUS ROG swift monitor reaction time: 1ms GTG

Assuming we use a framerate of 120, the average frametime is 8.33ms

So we're up to about 9.33ms. I'm going to give gamers the benefit of the doubt here and say our reaction time is usually around 200ms (lower than the average 250ms by most normal people). That means the FASTEST you're going to see a new frame and then react is around 209ms

This is why a few microseconds seems like an inconsequential loss to me. We're talking about less than 1% difference in reaction time. When you take human perception/reaction time into account, it really is very difficult to feel the difference between 209ms and 208.5ms. However, the difference between 120fps (8.33ms), 60 FPS (16.7ms) and 30 FPS (33.4ms) is definitely perceivable.

In other words:

120 fps: 208.33ms
60 fps: 216.7ms
30 fps: 233.4ms

There's a pretty large gap between 30 and 60, but I can also attest to the fact that 120 fps on a good monitor feels smoother than 60fps. Therefore, I am agreeing that perceptibly, there is a huge difference between 30, 60, and 120 fps, but we are talking about a difference of 25ms per frame! Compare that to the less than 1ms that r0ach is trying to explain here, and it becomes even more crazy when human reaction time is usually over 200ms.

TL;DR Human Reaction time makes it nearly impossible to feel a 0.5ms or even 1ms difference in reaction. The synapses in our brain and nerve endings in our arm are simply too slow. When you amp that up to 16ms (60 fps) or 33ms (30 fps), though, that's when the perception becomes quantifiable and real. We're not robots, so honestly, I'm not going to pretend that I can feel the difference between 5 microseconds and 1 millisecond.

I am aware of the human reaction time, and for the sake of this argument, I am willing to overlook reaction in favor of his supposed ultra-perceptibility. Another reason for that is that you also 'expect' things and prognosticate them. Because, even if you are gifted with a superhuman reaction time of 50ms, you would never be able to track someone if you reacted only to your perception. You calculate where your opponent would be after [x] amount of time, and you pre-emptively position your crosshair there. That's why muscle memory is important. There are many more factors, but that would be going off-topic.

Leave all that aside and bear with me. tongue.gif
I am talking about a supposed, entirely theoretical, scenario which 'we believe' he must be experiencing since he is that certain about his results.

How is he able to tell a 0.00001s difference in-game, when even his monitor cannot draw the frame with such consistency, let alone refresh between them? wink.gif
And his claims go far beyond the threshold of any pixel skipping that might occur with regards to mouse movement, which would explain part of his ..erm, bad trips.


I don't argue with you - what you said is true.
I am just bringing the discussion to a scope of measurement that should, by quantity, fit in his scale of difference measurement.
Edited by fragamemnon - 1/19/15 at 5:36am
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post #129 of 258
These threads tend to get uncomfortable to the point of killing themselves. I think it's widely established by now that there is a valid argument to make and disregard r0ach's statements for lack of a more strict scientific or researched approach. Spending sites upon sites to argue about that seems unnecessary. Especially since the arguments made against r0ach hardly provide any technical or otherwise scientific background either and often refrain to personal perception as well.

The thing with fractions of miliseconds is that while a human may indeed not be sensitive on that scale (which is also not an established scientific fact), it's nothing for a PC. There are countless time-sensitive processes and components at work and 100 microseconds at HUB stage could mean a whole frame of outdated input data making the game code or refresh cycle at rendering stage. The argument that the imprecise nature of the monitor as an output device renders everything beneath that useless is one I never understood. I always associate it with people saying click latency of e. g. 10ms doesn't matter because the screen is only refreshing each ~16ms at 60Hz. It's not like that's a bottleneck - latency adds up, it doesn't overshadow itself somehow. People also tend to neglect how a monitor operates. In non-VSYNC mode it doesn't actually show 1 frame each refresh cycle, it continually draws fresh frame data, meaning visual input cannot be simply determined in Hz.

And while it is true that we essentially interact with the PC visually, the visual output is only an indication of finer interactions in the simulation itself. You may not always "see" in the narrower sense the results of an off-timed poll interval or a processor halt prolonged by a milisecond, but throughout the constant input/output/action/reaction feedback loop of a game scenario there is definitely a perceptual realm that goes beyond raw color output on your monitor.
And even if we couldn't ever perceive the impact of these things on a sensory level, of course the game code doesn't care about that - any imprecision or latency in your system will interfere with the game sequence. It may look and feel the exact same to you in both scenarios, but in one the game inherently functions better than in the other, leading to you getting that headshot that you otherwise would have thought was lost in your hand's imprecision or game's inherent inaccuracy.

Quantifying that impact is impossible even if we had proper technical insight into the entirety of variables at work. Yes, it is reasonable to say an approach as dedicated to minute differences is unjustified, especially when functionality is compromised elsewhere, but that is an opinion and arguing about it won't help either side. What you can do is research and provide insight yourself, just ignore threads like these, or just try things yourself. Disable all your audio components right now and play a session of a game you have come here wanting to improve the experience of. If you can't at all notice any difference and aren't really that hardcore about "optimizing" to begin with, why bother?
Alternatively you could also look at your system's polling behaviour and DPC latency during gaming and post your results here, because those serve to at least approximatively give us some idea of the extend of the problem. I admit that affirmation and other biases can be at play, but I personally with settings that decrease DPC latency and increase polling precision, even when in the two to three-digit microsecond range, do notice a postive effect on my game.
Edited by HAGGARD - 1/19/15 at 5:44am
post #130 of 258
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Pistol View Post


So we're up to about 9.33ms. I'm going to give gamers the benefit of the doubt here and say our reaction time is usually around 200ms (lower than the average 250ms by most normal people). That means the FASTEST you're going to see a new frame and then react is around 209ms
Srsly man, what you are saying is an equivalent to " Without a high precision photo-finish You can't justify which racing car crossed the finish line first because the second one came only 50 ms after the first one and human reaction time is 200 ms" .
Edited by Tazzzz - 1/19/15 at 6:39am
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