Overclock.net › Forums › Components › Mice › Windows audio stack sucks, anything higher than stereo 16 bit 44.1k has higher cursor lag
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Windows audio stack sucks, anything higher than stereo 16 bit 44.1k has higher cursor lag - Page 15  

post #141 of 258
I think absolute Monitor input lag is higher than that - the best are around 25 ms IIRC. For reaction times, I can get 150 ms on a good day with a Logitech mouse and 144Hz low latency monitor. Not sure how good my reactions used to be. If someone has 100 ms reaction speed they are still going to win. If they have the same reactions as me and slightly lower latency system they might win if the difference is larger than the server tick window. BF4 this window would be 50 ms which is why there are so many double KO (also why the game is so s-t-u-t-t-e-r-y). In CSS this window can be as low as 8-10ms so the latency would matter. At my age I am no longer competitive though so none of this matters, jut play for the funs.

For me the main thing with a mouse is consistency and ergo, a little bit of latency is not a big deal especially if the latency is consistent. Pro gamers aren't so precious about mouse input and a lot use even SS Sensei.
post #142 of 258
The SS Sensei (well at least the RAW version) is a really good mouse imo if one can cope with the accel issue.
Desktop (Main)
(21 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel Core i7 5820K ASUS X99-A/USB 3.1  ASUS ROG Strix GeForce GTX 1080 Kingston HyperX 16GB 3Ghz  
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
Samsung 840 Pro Seagate Barracuda 1.5 TB Seagate Barracuda 2.0 TB Seagate Barracuda 4TB 
Hard DriveOptical DriveCoolingOS
Seagate Barracuda 4TB Le random dvd writer Corsair Hydro Series™ H100i Windows 10 Professional 64 bit 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
iiyama ProLite G2773HS Corsair K70 Super Flower 1200W (Platinum) Corsair 600T Black 
MouseMouse PadAudioAudio
Nixeus Revel Allsop Raindrop XL ASUS Xonar Essence STXII Sennheiser HD650 
Audio
Musical Fidelity X-Can v3 
  hide details  
Desktop (Main)
(21 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel Core i7 5820K ASUS X99-A/USB 3.1  ASUS ROG Strix GeForce GTX 1080 Kingston HyperX 16GB 3Ghz  
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
Samsung 840 Pro Seagate Barracuda 1.5 TB Seagate Barracuda 2.0 TB Seagate Barracuda 4TB 
Hard DriveOptical DriveCoolingOS
Seagate Barracuda 4TB Le random dvd writer Corsair Hydro Series™ H100i Windows 10 Professional 64 bit 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
iiyama ProLite G2773HS Corsair K70 Super Flower 1200W (Platinum) Corsair 600T Black 
MouseMouse PadAudioAudio
Nixeus Revel Allsop Raindrop XL ASUS Xonar Essence STXII Sennheiser HD650 
Audio
Musical Fidelity X-Can v3 
  hide details  
post #143 of 258
Hands down the best gaming sound card I have used is the Creative titanium HD, especially with headphones. for some reason Creative discontinued them and brought out their Z line of junk.

I've owned about a dozen different sound cards and while the high end Asus cards provide a better platform for music and movies, the Titanium HD has the best positional audio placement in FPS games.
Murder Box II
(18 items)
 
Home PC
(15 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel 8700k Gigabyte Aorus Z370 Gaming 7 Zotac 1080Ti AMP Extreme Edition G. Skill Trident Z - 32GB/ 3200Hz/CL14/Dual 
Hard DriveCoolingOSMonitor
Sandisk Extreme Pro 480GB Corsair H100i V2 - w/ML120 Pro Fans Windows 10 Home 64 Bit Acer Z35P 1440P G-Sync 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
Delux T9 Pro / Logitech K360 EVGA Supernova G2 1000W Corsair 450D Mionix Naos 7000 
Mouse PadAudioAudioOther
Perixx DX-3000LAL Aluminum Sound Blaster Z Logitech Z906 - 5.1 Maxnomic Commander S-III Gaming Chair 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel G3440 Asus B85M-E/CSM EVGA GTX 950 Patriot Viper 3 - 2x8GB 1600hz 
Hard DriveOptical DriveCoolingOS
Samsung EVO 850 - 500GB + 4TB/3TB x 2/2TB WD Green LG CH12LS28 Bluray Scythe Big Shuriken 2 w/Corsair SP120 Fan Windows 10 64 Bit 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
Samsung 75" TV.... GooBang Doo MX3 Corsair CX430 V2 NMEDIAPC HTPC 6000B w/ Pro LCD Module 
Mouse
GooBang Doo MX3 
  hide details  
Murder Box II
(18 items)
 
Home PC
(15 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel 8700k Gigabyte Aorus Z370 Gaming 7 Zotac 1080Ti AMP Extreme Edition G. Skill Trident Z - 32GB/ 3200Hz/CL14/Dual 
Hard DriveCoolingOSMonitor
Sandisk Extreme Pro 480GB Corsair H100i V2 - w/ML120 Pro Fans Windows 10 Home 64 Bit Acer Z35P 1440P G-Sync 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
Delux T9 Pro / Logitech K360 EVGA Supernova G2 1000W Corsair 450D Mionix Naos 7000 
Mouse PadAudioAudioOther
Perixx DX-3000LAL Aluminum Sound Blaster Z Logitech Z906 - 5.1 Maxnomic Commander S-III Gaming Chair 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel G3440 Asus B85M-E/CSM EVGA GTX 950 Patriot Viper 3 - 2x8GB 1600hz 
Hard DriveOptical DriveCoolingOS
Samsung EVO 850 - 500GB + 4TB/3TB x 2/2TB WD Green LG CH12LS28 Bluray Scythe Big Shuriken 2 w/Corsair SP120 Fan Windows 10 64 Bit 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
Samsung 75" TV.... GooBang Doo MX3 Corsair CX430 V2 NMEDIAPC HTPC 6000B w/ Pro LCD Module 
Mouse
GooBang Doo MX3 
  hide details  
post #144 of 258
he does display grandiosity.
New gaming rig
(15 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
4770k some mid range asrock. extreme 4 maybe? 2x gigabyte windforce 7950 2 x 8 corsair balistix sport 
Hard DriveOptical DriveCoolingOS
crucial ct960 LG blu-ray used venamous x win 8.1 pro 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
Crossover 30Q5 PRO 30" 2560X1600  cheapest piece of crud I could find antec HCG 750 some thermaltake microcenter blue-light-special... 
MouseMouse PadAudio
came with the cheapass keyboard who cares? some $30 no name 2+sub speakers I bought at mic... 
  hide details  
New gaming rig
(15 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
4770k some mid range asrock. extreme 4 maybe? 2x gigabyte windforce 7950 2 x 8 corsair balistix sport 
Hard DriveOptical DriveCoolingOS
crucial ct960 LG blu-ray used venamous x win 8.1 pro 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
Crossover 30Q5 PRO 30" 2560X1600  cheapest piece of crud I could find antec HCG 750 some thermaltake microcenter blue-light-special... 
MouseMouse PadAudio
came with the cheapass keyboard who cares? some $30 no name 2+sub speakers I bought at mic... 
  hide details  
post #145 of 258
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trull View Post

You make it sound ridiculous, but it really isn't. Those 144Hz monitors you mentioned are well beyond 1ms of input lag (it's only 1ms GTG), it's more like 6-7ms and higher, so yeah, I would say that if you're a serious gamer that cares about input lag and cursor response then you should definitely stick with CRT's until OLED comes out (and even then, OLED is worse than CRT and not necessarily optimized for gaming).
Well if it's 144Hz, the screen is updating every 7ms. Any panel response times are overhead on top of that. So if the panel has 5ms response times at 144Hz, you have at least 12ms latency there.
I'm not sure how microsecond latencies/jitter are supposed to have any effect on cursor movement.

CRTs are absolutely the fastest display tech out there right now, and both DLP and OLED have the potential to be contenders, but none of the currently existing products are anywhere close to CRT latency.

P3o4IfX.png

CRTs draw the frame in about 0.2ms while OLED takes a lazy 2ms to get there - about 1ms to get most of the way.
CRT total persistence is much shorter as well, resulting in sharper motion. (note: this was at 60Hz)
And with CRTs being analog, there's no digital processing to delay the signal further, as there is with digital displays.

So with CRT your response time is something like frame time plus 0.2ms. What's the highest anyone is using a CRT at these days? 180Hz?
That still leaves almost 6ms display latency, assuming there is nothing else holding it up. (v-sync adds another 5.6ms for example)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Versus2190 View Post

16bit 44.1k didn't change anything on my system as well (probably depends on the sound card), whereas uninstalling Windows Components (Win7) has made a huge improvement. TY r0ach, great guide, especially for people without arms I believe.
For what it's worth, my DAC has lower latency at higher sample rates than lower sample rates.

At 44.1kHz the latency is 1.36ms
At 192kHz the latency is 0.47ms

Game audio is typically 48kHz so avoiding that resampling step is potentially going to reduce latency/CPU usage slightly, though I really doubt it would have any effect.
And you're stupid to be using a 16-bit output from a 24-bit device. If anything it will increase latency/processing requirements, and it can definitely result in an audible drop in quality at anything less than 100% volume.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robilar View Post

Hands down the best gaming sound card I have used is the Creative titanium HD, especially with headphones. for some reason Creative discontinued them and brought out their Z line of junk.
The Z does the same SBX/THX processing as the X-Fi Titanium HD, only now it's hardware accelerated.
CMSS-3D on the X-Fi is amazing in its OpenAL implementation (true 3D sound) but SBX/THX is better when downmixing 5.1 sources.
post #146 of 258
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NotAgain View Post

Game audio is typically 48kHz so avoiding that resampling step is potentially going to reduce latency/CPU usage slightly, though I really doubt it would have any effect.
And you're stupid to be using a 16-bit output from a 24-bit device.

I just tested it on a fresh Windows 7 install. The Audigy 2 ZS is a 24bit card and the Creative driver defaults to 16 bit 48k. The X-FI is a 24bit card and it's driver released in 2014 defaults to 24 bit 192k. Lowering the bitrate on both to 16 bit 44.1k decreases latency on the desktop while not even playing sound. It's not a tiny or negligible amount, it's a large difference in mouse response.

Your claim doesn't make sense that it's stupid to use 16 bit on a 24 bit card when Creative drivers already default to 16 bit on some of their 24 bit cards. They were probably aware that using higher bitrate and sampling causes more strain on the system with negligible quality gain and didn't use them.
post #147 of 258
how big impact has USB DAC on DPC in games without any additional drivers installed? Could it be better than Xonar DX with uni xonar driver (low dpc mode)? thanks
post #148 of 258
Quote:
Originally Posted by leakydog View Post

how big impact has USB DAC on DPC in games without any additional drivers installed? Could it be better than Xonar DX with uni xonar driver (low dpc mode)? thanks

I'm more worried about the latency associated with driving a DAC over USB. The sound card has a direct link to the CPU if it's through PCI or PCIe, not to mention the bandwidth is much higher than USB (except for 3.0). USB, on the other hand, has a special hub that the signal must pass through, not to mention the encode/decode phase of the USB device. I know the DAC will definitely sound better, and the good ones will be able to push much higher impedance headphones, which will lead to far cleaner audio than any onboard sound could ever produce, but is there a price on response time?

However, my sound card argument was not about 192khz/24-bit audio. The clarity comes from a sound card being able to not only be louder than onboard, but also being able to push headphones with higher impedance. A normal set of headphones don't require that much juice to push. Better headphones require more power to make them actually sound the way they're supposed to.

http://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2011/02/headphone-impedance-explained.html

Give that a read, and you will understand why I stick with a sound card over motherboard audio for my headphones. Simply put, the audio is more "muddy" on onboard than it is on the sound card. It's not because the sound card can produce better sound, per se. Rather, the sound card can simply push the headphones to the point where they are getting the proper power needed to make them function correctly.

For the common gamer, I can understand why this wouldn't matter. Get a decent gaming headset, and you're done. Onboard audio can push that with decent results. On top of that, most kids/teenagers are all about getting as much bass as possible out of their set up. That doesn't require much to do. For someone like me, who wants to hear the little nuances and details, even for games, overblown bass is an enemy, and balanced mids and highs are your friend. A good sound card/DAC can pull that out of a decent set of cans. Onboard audio simply cannot.
Edited by Mad Pistol - 1/19/15 at 5:57pm
Everest - Intel
(19 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel i7 4790k Gigabyte Z97X Gaming 7 MSI Geforce GTX 1080 Ti Gaming X 16GB (2x8) Patriot Viper 1866Mhz  
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
Seagate 3TB, WD 500GB HDD, WD 640GB HD Samsung 850 EVO 512GB Samsung DVD-Burner Corsair H110 w/ Dual Aerocool DS 140mm fans 
OSMonitorMonitorKeyboard
Windows 10 Pro Dell S2716DG (1440p, 144hz Gsync) AOC U3477 PQU (3440x1440 IPS) Logitech G810 Orion Spectrum 
PowerCaseMouseMouse Pad
Evga SuperNOVA 750 G2 NZXT Phantom 530 Black Logitech G502 Proteus Core Corsair MM400 
AudioAudioAudio
Creative Sound Blaster E5 DAC/AMP Sennheiser HD 598 Headphones HyperX Cloud Headset 
  hide details  
Everest - Intel
(19 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel i7 4790k Gigabyte Z97X Gaming 7 MSI Geforce GTX 1080 Ti Gaming X 16GB (2x8) Patriot Viper 1866Mhz  
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
Seagate 3TB, WD 500GB HDD, WD 640GB HD Samsung 850 EVO 512GB Samsung DVD-Burner Corsair H110 w/ Dual Aerocool DS 140mm fans 
OSMonitorMonitorKeyboard
Windows 10 Pro Dell S2716DG (1440p, 144hz Gsync) AOC U3477 PQU (3440x1440 IPS) Logitech G810 Orion Spectrum 
PowerCaseMouseMouse Pad
Evga SuperNOVA 750 G2 NZXT Phantom 530 Black Logitech G502 Proteus Core Corsair MM400 
AudioAudioAudio
Creative Sound Blaster E5 DAC/AMP Sennheiser HD 598 Headphones HyperX Cloud Headset 
  hide details  
post #149 of 258
Quote:
Originally Posted by r0ach View Post

Lowering the bitrate on both to 16 bit 44.1k decreases latency on the desktop while not even playing sound. It's not a tiny or negligible amount, it's a large difference in mouse response.

You are quite special.
post #150 of 258
hahahaha good luck with your ****ty >pc audio sound cards. If you where a real hardcore 12ms-reaction-time-hero like me you would use the same audio card I use, which is a 20k dollar MSB Diamond DAC with the femtosecond clock adition. and USB is for plebs that cannot notice the 3hour input lag you get by using an atx power supply, I only game with my analog, tube amplified power supply, and I only connect my dac using a 2k dollar I2S interface.
Using this gear I notice the MOUSE MOVEMENT is effortless, I can click details I could not click before, my flickshots are warmer and full bodied, and my windows browsing has more soundstage and better transient response.


Edited by Wphantom - 1/19/15 at 6:46pm
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Mice
  • Windows audio stack sucks, anything higher than stereo 16 bit 44.1k has higher cursor lag
This thread is locked  
Overclock.net › Forums › Components › Mice › Windows audio stack sucks, anything higher than stereo 16 bit 44.1k has higher cursor lag